Lambing ease gestation length

Nithsdale

Member
Livestock Farmer
I think it does. Having run pure Suffolk and Charollais flocks side by side, as well as using the same on crossbred ewes, the Charollais is clearly losing/has lost its easy lambing attributes. Due to breeders trying to turn the breed into a Texel.

The Charollais sired lambs always go over term and as a result have averaged 0.5Kg more at birth compared to the Suffolks.

And as the (UK) Suffolks are fine boned and selected for vigour, they are up and sucking in no time.

Offft you're going to upset a certain Suffolk hating, Char breeder on here with comment like this 🤣🤣
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
Offft you're going to upset a certain Suffolk hating, Char breeder on here with comment like this 🤣🤣

Not at all. There are plenty of breeders trying very hard to f**k the Charollais up, as happens in every breed in the UK when the silly feckers chase sale ring size above all else. It's all driven by the daft buggers that bid up for them of course, sending signals to 'ram breeders' that predominantly don't run commercial flocks. :banghead:

I'm not convinced that Charollais are necessarily having longer gestation periods though, more that many breeders are selecting for mature size, which is pushing up birth weights.
I have seen, when we have AI'ed big bunches, there is definitely a difference in gestation length between sires. We very often had the majority of lambs off one sire born first, all from a single service date. See the same in embryo lambs.
 
Not sure if it's correlation, or causation.

The easiest-calving sires we've used have been picked for low birthweight, ahead of short gestation?
Some of the easier calving bulls I've used haven't been particularly short gestation.

Even birth weight can be misleading, some bulls produce small blocky developed calves, some others with higher birthweight are long streamlined calves that are born easily.
I do agree with you generally though.
 

yellowbelly

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
N.Lincs
The Charollais sired lambs always go over term and as a result have averaged 0.5Kg more at birth compared to the Suffolks.
Interesting.
We've had the opposite here this year, although not with Charolais sired lambs but with Charolais sired ewes.
Our early mob (end Jan/ beginning Feb) started a good week before 147 days. All lambs looked full term and healthy.
When I looked at which ewes they were, 95% of them were some that I'd kept from one of @neilo 's terminal tups 'just to see how they went' as maternals.
Just put it down to Charolais having a shorter gestation but seems it doesn't fit with your experience :scratchhead:
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Some of the easier calving bulls I've used haven't been particularly short gestation.

Even birth weight can be misleading, some bulls produce small blocky developed calves, some others with higher birthweight are long streamlined calves that are born easily.
I do agree with you generally though.
We run Speckle Parks and they are generally +5/7 days longer than "average", but who wants to be average! Would rather see it than be it
 

Big Gus

Member
Livestock Farmer
Easycare was single sire mated to F1 ewe lambs.
Over 50% lambed in the last 4 days.

Easycare ewes single sire mated by inverdale 4 tooth are at 15%.

No data for the Shetland drafts mob mated by inverdale rams, but suspect it is less than the easycares.
Did your Mrs no say they weren’t single sire mated? Just been following her posts like.
 

unlacedgecko

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Fife
Did your Mrs no say they weren’t single sire mated? Just been following her posts like.

The F1 ewe hoggs and 2 tooths lambing now are all out of Shetlands. Those Shetlands were mob mated by twin born easycare, performance recorded easycare (single myomax) and exlana.

The F1 ewe hoggs and 2 tooths from the above breeding were then single sire mated to a performance recorded double myomax easycare. F1 easycare x inverdale were single sire mated by the same ram, but there's only 3 and non of them have lambed yet.

The easycare 2 tooths lambing now were single sire mated by an inverdale ram with single myomax.

The Shetland draft ewes lambing now were mob mated by inverdale rams, some single myomax, some double myomax, some non myomax.

For us, F1 refers to Shetland x any "pure" shedder first cross.
F2 refers to F1 x any "pure" shedder.
 

Big Gus

Member
Livestock Farmer
The F1 ewe hoggs and 2 tooths lambing now are all out of Shetlands. Those Shetlands were mob mated by twin born easycare, performance recorded easycare (single myomax) and exlana.

The F1 ewe hoggs and 2 tooths from the above breeding were then single sire mated to a performance recorded double myomax easycare. F1 easycare x inverdale were single sire mated by the same ram, but there's only 3 and non of them have lambed yet.

The easycare 2 tooths lambing now were single sire mated by an inverdale ram with single myomax.

The Shetland draft ewes lambing now were mob mated by inverdale rams, some single myomax, some double myomax, some non myomax.

For us, F1 refers to Shetland x any "pure" shedder first cross.
F2 refers to F1 x any "pure" shedder.
Aye ok that makes a wee bit more sense. But I canna understand the whole innovis style genetics patter. Are you no just trying to breed yourself a flock of shedders cheaply by starting off with a wee Cheaply bought shedding (mostly) draft yow. Buying in decent easycare and exlana tups and putting them to the wee island rats and calling them F1 and then putting them back to the shedders again to produce your f2. By F 3,4,5 or whatever you’ve pretty much bred the Shetland oot of them and you have your easycare flock. But I guess you’re hoping to have a wee bit of myomax and inverdale in there as a selling point. What are you hoping to achieve as an end point oot of interest ? Do you see the inverdale as a good thing ? Can it not also have negative effects?
 

unlacedgecko

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Fife
Aye ok that makes a wee bit more sense. But I canna understand the whole innovis style genetics patter. Are you no just trying to breed yourself a flock of shedders cheaply by starting off with a wee Cheaply bought shedding (mostly) draft yow. Buying in decent easycare and exlana tups and putting them to the wee island rats and calling them F1 and then putting them back to the shedders again to produce your f2. By F 3,4,5 or whatever you’ve pretty much bred the Shetland oot of them and you have your easycare flock. But I guess you’re hoping to have a wee bit of myomax and inverdale in there as a selling point. What are you hoping to achieve as an end point oot of interest ? Do you see the inverdale as a good thing ? Can it not also have negative effects?
I've messaged you on Facebook messenger. I'm banned on Facebook currently so can't post.

F1, F2 are standard breeding term for cross breeding. Both Rosie and I know what we're referring to with F1, F2 etc. It's easier for us to say that than 1/2 Shetland, 1/4 Shetland etc. We also both have a real keen interest in genetics, recording and sheep breeding. I'm always listening to podcasts on breeding or grassland management or livestock. I've been planning this flock for the last 8 years. Being able to action those plans is really exciting and gets me out of bed every day.

Yes, grading up "wee island rats" to a commercial shedding composite is exactly what I/we are doing. They could be called easycare, but that's a trademarked name. And I haven't looked into the breed spec in detail. From a £20 draft ewe and a couple of years of breeding I'll potentially have an animal which can match a NCM in production, but with far less maintenance.

The myomax is to counteract the Shetlands poor shape. Each copy adds 5-7.5% lean meat yield on the hind quarters. So it should improve confirmation without compromising lambing ease. Here's an in depth explanation of myomax. https://www.easycaresheep.com/news/2020/the-myostatin-gene-explained

The inverdale is to dramatically increase the Shetlands small litter size.

Here's an explanation of inverdale.

706048-ae4158a0c2e79ee12ff91ca4770cf67f.jpg


80% of infertile (X X) ewe lambs can be identified at lamb marking be their deformed nipples. The remainder won't cycle, so could be negatively identified by raddled teasers, or by being empty at scanning. But I'm a few years off any such ewe lambs being bred.

What am I hoping to achieve as an end point?

A flock of ewes with the following characteristics

55-60kg
Hair type coat shedders
Excellent feet and teeth
Scan over 200%
Give birth unassisted
Wean triples to commercially viable weights
Rebreed on time
20-25% annual replacement rate
Do all the above solely off grazed forage.

In short, I want a very efficient low input high output flock. All flock ear tags are marked LIHO.

At some unspecified point in the future I may offer breeding sheep for sale. But I'd want to performance record them beforehand, so that's some way off.

It's hoped that a clean shedding double myomax inverdale ram will be born this month. If not, he will definitely be born next year. As per the diagram above I will need to test these lambs to discover if any match my requirements.

Once this animal is born he will be used on the F1 and F2 females. In later years the LIHO rams may be used directly over Shetland drafts to produce a mule type female for sale. Or I can use them to rapidly expand my flock as the land situation requires.

All the F2 lambs being born this year will be at least single myomax. That's how genetic inheritance works, as they were sired by a double myomax ram.

As far as I'm aware, there is no one else breeding inverdale shedders. If you know of someone please let me know as I'd be keen to speak to them.

I'm more than happy to answer any other questions here or on Facebook messenger.
 
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LuckyEleven

Member
Location
Brittany
Just for those interested in some of the characteristics mentioned above have a research of 'Belle-Île sheep'
Slow growth is a bit of a downer..... but they strike me as having some interesting genetics/potential
 
The birthing process in sheep and cattle is initiated by the foetus/foetuses. This rapid change in hormone secretion type starts an hormonal chain reaction through the placenta to the dam, resulting in contractions and the other physical things we as farmers observe. The dam is the unwitting respondent to these chemical messages.
The lamb is genetically different to its dam, having half of its make up coming from its sire. That inherited difference from the sire can be expressed in variations in foetal maturity to the point of when it initiates the hormonal change, hence the variation in gestation length between sires.

***** It's a sire of the lamb thing, not the breeding of the ewe thing. *****

Breeders who record "Survival" using a genetic performance programme have an excellent platform to observe and compare this trait with birth weight. Increased birth weight is influenced by increased Adult Size, this can be a problem for Terminal breeds put over smaller maternal breeds. However "curve bender" sires (smaller birth weight, but faster growth rate) remedy this without the trauma at lambing/calving.

***** The figures for the trait "Survival" generally sorts out the problematic individuals. *****
 
A flock of ewes with the following characteristics

55-60kg
Hair type coat shedders
Excellent feet and teeth
Scan over 200%
Give birth unassisted
Wean triples to commercially viable weights
Rebreed on time
20-25% annual replacement rate
Do all the above solely off grazed forage.
Why would you want to scan over 200%? Surely that's above the optimum even if there were no singles?
On the original thread heading, I've started using Exlana rams the last couple of years and lambs by them will often be birthed up to a week earlier than expected if you went by traditional gestation
 

unlacedgecko

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Fife
Why would you want to scan over 200%? Surely that's above the optimum even if there were no singles?
On the original thread heading, I've started using Exlana rams the last couple of years and lambs by them will often be birthed up to a week earlier than expected if you went by traditional gestation

I want to scan over 200% because I want to wean over 200%.

If I'm going to have ewes which can wean triples they must be given the opportunity by lambing triples. Otherwise how else will I identify those ewes?

IMG_20200626_122753_4.jpg


Here's a Shetland draft (cull?) ewe with her triplets. The ewe reared a single the next year then went cull. And did it all off grazed forage.

The dark lamb in the center is a ewe lamb. She reared a single as a ewe hogg and is due to lamb a single as a 2 tooth this year.

"Optimum" scan is decided by the feed you have access to and how well you can utilise it. Destocking my grazing platform October - March means I go into lambing with a good grass wedge.
Moving forward I'll look to tighten the tupping period to 1 cycle for maternals. This will allow early weaning (8/9 weeks) to set ewes up for next tupping.
 
I want to scan over 200% because I want to wean over 200%.

If I'm going to have ewes which can wean triples they must be given the opportunity by lambing triples. Otherwise how else will I identify those ewes?
Have you ever come across many ewes that consistently wean triplets? I used to leave reasonable numbers of triplets on good ewes but I've come to the conclusion it wrecks the ewe in the long term. Either by ruining her udder or BCS well below the rest of the flock. They never tend to do many lambings after IMO. Would rather £20 in the pocket for a cade/sock lamb and a cracking pair
 

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