"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
I'm probably "a purist" in some respects.
In that, we do grazing, not farming.. we feed animals by giving them pasture, not pasture plus this and this and that

the problem with this this and that isn't the inputs, but it allows us to take our eye off the ball, and I'm enough of a purist to want my eye firmly on the ball at all times - this is how I'll improve/learn the fastest

not so much learning what works, because it works - I need to know what doesn't work so well
farming is a business, and in my view, businesses should adapt to changing times, whether weather, financial or practical. Things change, all the time.
the changes we have made, major changes at that, but they have made us more resilient, or l hope they have!

but so many farmers, fall into a rut, they do this, or that, because that's always been done, that way. Or, they get 'hooked' onto a new system, ie grazing, plate metres, plans etc, and won't deviate from the 'rules'. But everything changes over time, and we have to change with it.

And this year, is the biggest changes since the 4 course rotation ! Can't imagine many farmers have kept to their budgets, no one could have foreseen, all the price movements that have occurred this year. But it is those, that are flexible, that can exploit those changes, to their benefit.

actually think the regen farming, is one of the most flexible systems out there, we can use the whole spectrum of modern farming tools, - if, we have to, which gives you confidence, that if you cock it up, its easy to 'tidy' up. But, to be honest, we haven't really had a serious cock-up, and those modern tools, haven't been used, as normally would have been.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
It is damnably difficult to grow grass without moisture. Looking at some of our 135+ day rested areas "in a normal autumn" they would have grown as much in 35 days.... however there is an extra 100 days to think and plan, in there.

Many would see destocking as a sign of "failure" or "defeat" but I don't, I see it as a time where we can refine our genetics, where we can maybe lose some average or below-average animals and therefore have a better average cow herd in future.

Making these calls isn't a failure so much as failing to make these calls is?

But it's that time, isn't it? In this context time really is money, realising that your carrying capacity is less than your stocking rate "now" and acting is preferable to realising it in a month
destocking adult cattle, is fine, and good practice, we have done it, with our herd, but, there's always a but, l like to replace those adult cattle, with calves, or similar, they make very little difference, to food stocks, but are growing into cattle, that replace, those that were sold. Seen to many that have cut back, and been unable to fund, restocking.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
farming is a business, and in my view, businesses should adapt to changing times, whether weather, financial or practical. Things change, all the time.
the changes we have made, major changes at that, but they have made us more resilient, or l hope they have!

but so many farmers, fall into a rut, they do this, or that, because that's always been done, that way. Or, they get 'hooked' onto a new system, ie grazing, plate metres, plans etc, and won't deviate from the 'rules'. But everything changes over time, and we have to change with it.

And this year, is the biggest changes since the 4 course rotation ! Can't imagine many farmers have kept to their budgets, no one could have foreseen, all the price movements that have occurred this year. But it is those, that are flexible, that can exploit those changes, to their benefit.

actually think the regen farming, is one of the most flexible systems out there, we can use the whole spectrum of modern farming tools, - if, we have to, which gives you confidence, that if you cock it up, its easy to 'tidy' up. But, to be honest, we haven't really had a serious cock-up, and those modern tools, haven't been used, as normally would have been.
I know - makes me despair sometimes that "there has to be a recipe"
"there must be a definition"

when really there are just things that work well and things that work less well, my vision is to create something that just works a wee bit better than last time, most times.

That's pretty "loose" and that's how I like it.

I'd hate to be tied to something that only works with ideal weather / expert labour / specialised machinery / owned stock / agrichemicals because it's reasonably apparent that all those things are in short supply.

'Hoping' that expensive stuff gets affordable or cheap produce goes up in value - well, why has it not happened? Because 'hope' is just hope
 
Ey up - just checking back in.
good to see you all alive and kicking.
great stuff on the rotations with multi species.... just in time as im (fingers crossed) obtaining 10 (or so)baby heifers to finally get some cattle mouths on.
theyll be following the sheep pretty directly i think and as im sticking with mostly a 1d rotation the calves will get a second pick as clean up crew...
also watering them should be easier like that... and the good news is i can send them home pretty sharpish.
Re calves - anything i should expect re minerals? and im assuming theyre not going to be 100l a day cows...... so im hoping 400l will last a week or so as long as it doesnt go dry (when theyll go to the woods/home)
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
destocking adult cattle, is fine, and good practice, we have done it, with our herd, but, there's always a but, l like to replace those adult cattle, with calves, or similar, they make very little difference, to food stocks, but are growing into cattle, that replace, those that were sold. Seen to many that have cut back, and been unable to fund, restocking.
I would also destock youngstock - send replacements to where the feed is, then you can still milk the cows at home.

- Any reduction in stocking rate is destocking, it doesn't necessarily mean you need to sell or cull, just don't have them "here" when you don't need them here
 

Gulli

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
Not sure any of it is really new maybe more frequent,
10 years ago we had a reasonably dry spring followed by a complete wash out summer without 2 dry days to make any silage, we re housed some cows late may and everything was housed for the winter by first week of oct, that winter was 7 months with the grass burnt to hell with frost the next spring.
seen wet springs back in the early 80's one year we didn't turn out till June, yet mum recalls a march turnout back in the 60's, hardly ever done that since.
seen dry summers where the ground cracks enough to shove yer boot down and the cows wonder around eating the hedge. seen wet summers were the cows make holes big enough to shove yer boot down.
I will let you know when I see something new
2012 was a miserable summer! Spent a month in April lambing on the west coast of Scotland in 20 degree sunshine, came home and bought my first sheep, they came with free arm bands 😂
Only year we have ever had to redrill a maize crop have pictures somewhere of the waist deep ruts from the forager. The grass never stopped growing here though
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
2012 was a miserable summer! Spent a month in April lambing on the west coast of Scotland in 20 degree sunshine, came home and bought my first sheep, they came with free arm bands 😂
Only year we have ever had to redrill a maize crop have pictures somewhere of the waist deep ruts from the forager. The grass never stopped growing here though
we had plenty of grass the cows didn't like it though, all wind and water
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Ey up - just checking back in.
good to see you all alive and kicking.
great stuff on the rotations with multi species.... just in time as im (fingers crossed) obtaining 10 (or so)baby heifers to finally get some cattle mouths on.
theyll be following the sheep pretty directly i think and as im sticking with mostly a 1d rotation the calves will get a second pick as clean up crew...
also watering them should be easier like that... and the good news is i can send them home pretty sharpish.
Re calves - anything i should expect re minerals? and im assuming theyre not going to be 100l a day cows...... so im hoping 400l will last a week or so as long as it doesnt go dry (when theyll go to the woods/home)
Howdy, I would expect you'll know what your sheep are lacking in - I'd say the same minerals + copper for calves

Here it's obviously selenium, zinc and copper, we see a response to all of those. Cobalt is alright and magnesium is there or thereabouts, but they are included in the mineral mix we have supplied and so it's a done deal.

Re water, it really varies with temperature, a hot day will soon have them drinking but cool dim days a whole lot less. I'd say our stock average 60-70 litres across a fair range of sizes, but they'll double it on a hot day! Be prepared.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
I would also destock youngstock - send replacements to where the feed is, then you can still milk the cows at home.

- Any reduction in stocking rate is destocking, it doesn't necessarily mean you need to sell or cull, just don't have them "here" when you don't need them here
we destocked for labour reasons, slightly different to weather, but l always feel you need 'something' coming on behind, you tend to stay in the same place.

we have been buying beef calves in, we use waste milk, stored milk etc, to feed them, was completely shocked when told decent milk powder was £2,700 ton, if buying that, a different set of economics applies. No wonder weaned calves are so dear ! but the smaller ones are cheaper, by nearly a bag of milk powder.
 

Samcowman

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Cornwall
I thought I might update you lot up north as to the situation over here.

Last night it rained here (6mm), after 7 weeks without a drop, and 7 weeks ago we only had 4mm.
We are offically under drought conditions for the last two weeks.

My little stream which runs through the front of the farm has stopped. This is only the second time anyone can remember this happening (going back to about WW2). The last time was in august only 3 years ago.

Today, the 17th of May we will hit 30°C.

I thought it might be a good warning shot for those just north of me of the times ahead.

As I have mentioned before I am geographically a lot closer to many of you than some of you are to each other.

In fact it is one of the reasons I still follow this group, as the weather here is far more similar to yours than it is to the rest of france.

I have farming freinds down south that have relocated north.

We have put so much in place over the last two years to create some resilience for unusual weather patterns. But I am unsure if we are going fast enough.

Its a pants time of year to not have water as it is now when we should be building up a feed wedge for this summer.

Anyway I am not in panic mode. I have my hollistic plan, and therefore a drought reserve, which gives me some time to react.

Thanks to that I have feed options (both stockpile and stored) and cattle prices are high should I want to unload a few; and thanks to my plan I don't have to wait until its too late to start destocking. It is nice to have options.

(prefer to have some decent rain though)
How close on your plan are you to destocking a bit?
the dry April here has seemed to hit silage yields quite a bit. With the rain from the thunderstorms the other night there should be some decent second cut around.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
How close on your plan are you to destocking a bit?
the dry April here has seemed to hit silage yields quite a bit. With the rain from the thunderstorms the other night there should be some decent second cut around.
contractor was saying, some places huge cuts, others very little, not that he does many., he does the smaller farms, and thinks finding the cash, to buy fert, has been to difficult for some, esp when they haven't paid last years yet.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
we destocked for labour reasons, slightly different to weather, but l always feel you need 'something' coming on behind, you tend to stay in the same place.

we have been buying beef calves in, we use waste milk, stored milk etc, to feed them, was completely shocked when told decent milk powder was £2,700 ton, if buying that, a different set of economics applies. No wonder weaned calves are so dear ! but the smaller ones are cheaper, by nearly a bag of milk powder.
Any form of "energy" will skyrocket in price, especially if it isn't perishable.
So a whole different set of economics lie ahead!

When you think of the potential energy in that tonne of CMR, it's really only "our standards" that keep it out of the human food chain, and imagine what it would cost you at a supermarket if that were the case 😳 here it would be around $14,000

makes clover seed seem cheap 🙂
 

Treg

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cornwall
Any form of "energy" will skyrocket in price, especially if it isn't perishable.
So a whole different set of economics lie ahead!
I think the current set of economics is going to be turned on it's head, a good future for agriculture in the longer term, I think there will be a fair few caught out by rising inputs.
The Governor of the Bank of England saying food price increases is a catastrophe waiting to happen, never thought I'd hear him say that even though most in agriculture could see it coming.
We've been the generation that has lived in a time of plenty and had it very easy.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
I think the current set of economics is going to be turned on it's head, a good future for agriculture in the longer term, I think there will be a fair few caught out by rising inputs.
The Governor of the Bank of England saying food price increases is a catastrophe waiting to happen, never thought I'd hear him say that even though most in agriculture could see it coming.
We've been the generation that has lived in a time of plenty and had it very easy.
long time coming, but it should have been obvious to see, really can't understand why those above us, couldn't see it coming. Head in the sand approach, from guv, but the major retailers, have no excuse, and have been the major cause.
It was so easy to avert, but greed got in the way, but it will cause horrendous problems, not only here, but globally.
There are negative weather signs, in some of the major corn growing areas, those, with Ukraine, makes me wonder if enough food, can be grown, to feed populations, particularly in poorer countries.
Although we shouldn't 'gloat' about it, it will make food production important again, even profitable. Also wonder how many, in this country, actually associate food with farming, such is the level of disconnect.
And, how long before we here '#########farmers, get money for nothing', as for certain, blame will be shunted on to us, by retailers.
 

Treg

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cornwall
long time coming, but it should have been obvious to see, really can't understand why those above us, couldn't see it coming. Head in the sand approach, from guv, but the major retailers, have no excuse, and have been the major cause.
It was so easy to avert, but greed got in the way, but it will cause horrendous problems, not only here, but globally.
There are negative weather signs, in some of the major corn growing areas, those, with Ukraine, makes me wonder if enough food, can be grown, to feed populations, particularly in poorer countries.
Although we shouldn't 'gloat' about it, it will make food production important again, even profitable. Also wonder how many, in this country, actually associate food with farming, such is the level of disconnect.
And, how long before we here '#########farmers, get money for nothing', as for certain, blame will be shunted on to us, by retailers.
Last week 2 members of the public thanked me when they realised I was a farmer!!! :oops:
Dad won a TV once for being runner up in milkman of the year , perhaps we only get a prize or thank yous for what we do once or twice in our lifetimes:ROFLMAO:
 

Poorbuthappy

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
Last week 2 members of the public thanked me when they realised I was a farmer!!! :oops:
Dad won a TV once for being runner up in milkman of the year , perhaps we only get a prize or thank yous for what we do once or twice in our lifetimes:ROFLMAO:
During covid a guy in a service station thanked me when realizing I was a farmer.
I thanked him saying we couldn't operate without him either.
 
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Fenwick

Member
Location
Bretagne France
Not sure any of it is really new maybe more frequent,

Exactly.. I get the feeling that "this" wasn't really much different to around 1987-89.

The years after it were so bloody WET that the water squirting out from under the tractor tyres used to wash the wheel opposite, and in places the turf lifted right up on a blister of water, it was actually too wet to make mud - because you couldn't go anywhere to make mud

that was about the time winter cropping was making a comeback and the rivers ran brown for months... nart new


I think you're right. These things have happened before. All the old timers here will talk of the great drought of 76. or the great flood of blah bla.

But its now most years, so it's becoming the norm.

You don't have to listen to the experts. We can see it on our farms. Things flowering earlier, and the first cut of hay is nearly always in may. When before you would be impressed to do any hay before july.

As farmers we can see the species change, we are outside all the time. Animals from down south now settling here over winter. Other species are moving north.

How close on your plan are you to destocking a bit?

Far from that yet. I have grazed some summer stockpile and I have plenty of hay left over from last year.
If I forcast feeding hay this summer (which is easy to do when we are grazing stockpile) then the date will be set for the animals to go then.

The animals which potentially may have to go have already been chosen.

Besides stocked feed is going to be costly to make this year. So a couple of animals less while the price is high may not be a bad thing.

and it is only may. So if it gets to raining, I might still end up with too much grass. Such are the joys of farming.
 

Boso

Member
If I was doing it again I would try to have sheep / cattle / lambs / calves in a rotation, so for example you're grazing cattle a month behind the sheep and the lambs a month behind the cows

that way your pasture is as 'clean' as possible for the younger stock to enjoy fresher grub but the land is only seeing ewes or adult cattle every few months - giving some of the benefits of long recoveries without youngstock working too hard or sucking the life out of things with frequent selective grazings

But with rotations like that you will not achieve 100 (or a long) days rest?
I would just run them all together as long as the cows behave themselves and not hurt the sheep and lambs.
Running a single herd/mob saves so much time and you can still maintain the longest possible recovery period.
With a fulltime job to me labour is more of a restriction than space.
 

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

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