Red and white diesel and farming operations

roscoe erf

Member
Livestock Farmer
Spot checks are likely and rule breakers risk significant fines. The government relaxed initial rules around tank flushing, meaning red diesel wasn’t required to be flushed out of tanks and lines once supply was used up. Purchasing and delivery documentation should be kept safe and accessible, to provide HMRC inspectors with a clear audit trail and demonstrate compliance and prove that there has been no stockpiling of red diesel.
 

Forkdriver

Member
Livestock Farmer
For boats in leisure use, red can be purchased and duty paid, as most marinas don't stock white. Red can be used for heating tax free so a declaration is made on purchasing of the percentage used. Complicated and relies on honesty. Surely farmers could be trusted to do the same. 😉
 

roscoe erf

Member
Livestock Farmer
For boats in leisure use, red can be purchased and duty paid, as most marinas don't stock white. Red can be used for heating tax free so a declaration is made on purchasing of the percentage used. Complicated and relies on honesty. Surely farmers could be trusted to do the same. 😉
red can still be used as fuel for all marine craft refuelling and operating in the UK, except for propelling private pleasure craft in Northern Ireland
 

Goweresque

Member
Location
North Wilts
red can still be used as fuel for all marine craft refuelling and operating in the UK, except for propelling private pleasure craft in Northern Ireland

Yes they can use red, but non-commercial users (canal boats and pleasure boats) have to declare the amount used for propulsion (vs how much for heating) and pay extra VAT on that proportion of what they buy. I'm sure lots of boater's fuel efficiency went up quite suddenly when that rule came in!

 

stop accepting!

Member
Livestock Farmer
So to summarise, you’re running a livery yard.
This:-
Activities not accepted as falling within the definition of agriculture, horticulture or forestry include:

  • the breeding, rearing or keeping of any creature solely for purposes relating to sport or recreation

  • is the extract from the relevant legislation that says you can’t use red diesel for your business.
Also To summarize.....YOUR WRONG....the definition of grazing land IS AGRICULTURAL THE DEFINITION OF HORSE IS LIVE STOCK....proven in the Dogs (protection of livestock)1953 act:
1. you don't give a monkeys then!
2. Land still has to be maintained,
3. Horses are classed as live stock, and grazing land IS agricultural...by the governments OWN admission....
4. This ORDER which also is not Law hasn't even been implemented legally and properly
5. Livery yard supply housing for those keeping horses for said purposes, that does not mean they are in themselves leisure, especially if they have NO way of providing activities in themselves, other than stabling because land is limited and grazing is more important,
6. oh and and by the way rules are also NOT LAWS.
7. the real clanger, it does not specifically make statement of what is regarded as leisure in the act itself, if it did equine would CLEARLY be mentioned, please point out where that statement exists
 

stop accepting!

Member
Livestock Farmer
So to summarise, you’re running a livery yard.
This:-
Activities not accepted as falling within the definition of agriculture, horticulture or forestry include:

  • the breeding, rearing or keeping of any creature solely for purposes relating to sport or recreation

  • is the extract from the relevant legislation that says you can’t use red diesel for your business.
Also To summarize.....YOUR WRONG....the definition of grazing land IS AGRICULTURAL THE DEFINITION OF HORSE IS LIVE STOCK....proven in the Dogs (protection of livestock)1953 act:
1. you don't give a monkeys then!
2. Land still has to be maintained,
3. Horses are classed as live stock, and grazing land IS agricultural...by the governments OWN admission....
4. This ORDER which also is not Law hasn't even been implemented legally and properly
5. Livery yard supply housing for those keeping horses for said purposes, that does not mean they are in themselves leisure, especially if they have NO way of providing activities in themselves, other than stabling because land is limited and grazing is more important,
6. oh and and by the way rules are also NOT LAWS.
7. the real clanger, it does not specifically make statement of what is regarded as leisure in the act itself, if it did equine would CLEARLY be mentioned, please point out where that statement exists
 

stop accepting!

Member
Livestock Farmer
See Post #159 .....!

2 posts above... ;)
mmm you post a giff in response, and then a one sentence wonder and call your self coherent, or at least claim I'm not, how very "facebook" of you! if you cant comprehend something, perhaps ask, you never know i might make it clearer for you!
 

stop accepting!

Member
Livestock Farmer
mmm oh hang on so its also ok for pleasure craft/vessels to use diesel as long as its declared, so does that mean its ok for pleasure ... PLEASURE CRUISE ocean liners, because they do use diesel don't they, and ill bet they have some deal going where that's concerned? are they not part of the LIESURE industry? mmm seems to me like prejudice and double standards, where pleasure industry definition is concerned with these ORDER's and regulation's!! so it aint just the golf clubs then?!
 

Wellytrack

Member
mmm you post a giff in response, and then a one sentence wonder and call your self coherent, or at least claim I'm not, how very "facebook" of you! if you cant comprehend something, perhaps ask, you never know i might make it clearer for you!

If your anything like the horse types I know you will bitch about two dock leafs found in a 4x4 bale whist having the ponies eyes poked out with rushes..
 

stop accepting!

Member
Livestock Farmer
If your anything like the horse types I know you will bitch about two dock leafs found in a 4x4 bale whist having the ponies eyes poked out with rushes..
sorry, but yes even i can laugh at that, since to be fair in one way your not wrong, there are a lot of people these days like that, they are called d**kheads, but that's not truly the point here is it, nor are you talking to the same ilk exactly, nor does it cover every horse yards attitude, given like farms, people are different, and thus attitude is different, environment is different so method of operation has to fall in line with said environment, no ONE answer suits all, because nature/environment wont let it, but then that said about people, again that kind of presumption needs care, as you could be under false impression, given your possibly referring to witnessing liveries, and not horse yard owners themselves (there are barn pots out there, but then are you saying there aren't farmers that can be barn pots either? there are barnpots in EVERY industry!), and you believe this entirely just because of your own personal opinion on the basis of the few you may claim to know?! in my experience you should never claim you know people till you actually do, because your asking yourself to be disappointed or ripped off!
 

Simon Chiles

DD Moderator
Also To summarize.....YOUR WRONG....the definition of grazing land IS AGRICULTURAL THE DEFINITION OF HORSE IS LIVE STOCK....proven in the Dogs (protection of livestock)1953 act:
1. you don't give a monkeys then!
2. Land still has to be maintained,
3. Horses are classed as live stock, and grazing land IS agricultural...by the governments OWN admission....
4. This ORDER which also is not Law hasn't even been implemented legally and properly
5. Livery yard supply housing for those keeping horses for said purposes, that does not mean they are in themselves leisure, especially if they have NO way of providing activities in themselves, other than stabling because land is limited and grazing is more important,
6. oh and and by the way rules are also NOT LAWS.
7. the real clanger, it does not specifically make statement of what is regarded as leisure in the act itself, if it did equine would CLEARLY be mentioned, please point out where that statement exists

I’d be the first to admit that I don’t know everything, and you’ve got to realise that in this sort of situation each case has to be judged on its own merits, as such it will always be impossible to give a definitive answer. However, in the interests of full disclosure I must point out that I was in discussion ( along with many others ) with HMRC about the legal use of rebated fuel and would like to think that I had a much better comprehension of the subject than most.
To answer your points:-
1) As these discussions took eight years and I wasn’t paid by anyone to be in them I think it a little unfair to say that I don’t give a monkey’s.
2 and 3) Maintaining the land doesn’t qualify you to use red. There are numerous contractors that get paid to remove grass from parks, some of them actually make it into hay and sell it to the equestrian market but because they are being paid to clear the grass they are running on white. Just because you graze your ground with horses doesn’t make it agricultural, just the same as a tree surgeon isn’t classed as forestry.
4) As far as I’m aware, even long before I was in discussions with HMRC, it has always been illegal to use red diesel when keeping animals for sport or leisure.
5) Nobody said you were supplying the livery yard for leisure, we understand that that is your business. It’s not the point. The fact is that the horses are used for leisure. If you were keeping the horses for blood donation or meat that would be a different matter.
6) Laws only come about by one of three mechanisms, an act of parliament, a statutory instrument ( which basically better defines the act of parliament ) or case law. If you are so certain the you are right you are more than welcome to see if you can become the case law that defines the situation for everyone else. I suspect that it would cost you a small fortune as I doubt HMRC would take it lightly but I can assure you that we’ll watch the case with interest.
7) The rules don’t mention equine as such because as I have stated above you could legitimately be farming horses. For clarity it’s what you ( or your customers ) do with the horse that would or wouldn’t qualify the keeping them as agriculture.
I hope this information helps you. I don’t mind having a sensible discussion with you on here, but if you decide to be aggressive or abusive I will withdraw from the dialogue. Thanks
 

Wellytrack

Member
sorry, but yes even i can laugh at that, since to be fair in one way your not wrong, there are a lot of people these days like that, they are called d**kheads, but that's not truly the point here is it, nor are you talking to the same ilk exactly, nor does it cover every horse yards attitude, given like farms, people are different, and thus attitude is different, environment is different so method of operation has to fall in line with said environment, no ONE answer suits all, because nature/environment wont let it, but then that said about people, again that kind of presumption needs care, as you could be under false impression, given your possibly referring to witnessing liveries, and not horse yard owners themselves (there are barn pots out there, but then are you saying there aren't farmers that can be barn pots either? there are barnpots in EVERY industry!), and you believe this entirely just because of your own personal opinion on the basis of the few you may claim to know?! in my experience you should never claim you know people till you actually do, because your asking yourself to be disappointed or ripped off!

Your basing your opinions being pulled out of thin air that farmers are of the attitude that’s it’s ‘alright jack’. Spare a thought for the plight of every other consumer in the country if you can see past your own selfishness.
 

stop accepting!

Member
Livestock Farmer
Your basing your opinions being pulled out of thin air that farmers are of the attitude that’s it’s ‘alright jack’. Spare a thought for the plight of every other consumer in the country if you can see past your own selfishness.
Really are they now, pulled out of thin air are they?! hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! and is that because you more concerned with consuming? we are more concerned about being able to EFFECTIVELY look after all the animals we have, which on the contrary aint just horses, and your saying I'm being selfish...mmm! right ok!
 

Wellytrack

Member
Really are they now, pulled out of thin air are they?! hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! and is that because you more concerned with consuming? we are more concerned about being able to EFFECTIVELY look after all the animals we have, which on the contrary aint just horses, and your saying I'm being selfish...mmm! right ok!

Nothing is stopping you looking after your horses. You just have to pay some more to do so, so yes, your just being selfish.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 79 42.0%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 66 35.1%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 30 16.0%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 7 3.7%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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