Red and white diesel and farming operations

Simon Chiles said:

I’d be the first to admit that I don’t know everything, and you’ve got to realise that in this sort of situation each case has to be judged on its own merits, as such it will always be impossible to give a definitive answer. However, in the interests of full disclosure I must point out that I was in discussion ( along with many others ) with HMRC about the legal use of rebated fuel and would like to think that I had a much better comprehension of the subject than most.
To answer your points:-
1) As these discussions took eight years and I wasn’t paid by anyone to be in them I think it a little unfair to say that I don’t give a monkey’s.
2 and 3) Maintaining the land doesn’t qualify you to use red. There are numerous contractors that get paid to remove grass from parks, some of them actually make it into hay and sell it to the equestrian market but because they are being paid to clear the grass they are running on white. Just because you graze your ground with horses doesn’t make it agricultural, just the same as a tree surgeon isn’t classed as forestry.
4) As far as I’m aware, even long before I was in discussions with HMRC, it has always been illegal to use red diesel when keeping animals for sport or leisure.
5) Nobody said you were supplying the livery yard for leisure, we understand that that is your business. It’s not the point. The fact is that the horses are used for leisure. If you were keeping the horses for blood donation or meat that would be a different matter.
6) Laws only come about by one of three mechanisms, an act of parliament, a statutory instrument ( which basically better defines the act of parliament ) or case law. If you are so certain the you are right you are more than welcome to see if you can become the case law that defines the situation for everyone else. I suspect that it would cost you a small fortune as I doubt HMRC would take it lightly but I can assure you that we’ll watch the case with interest.
7) The rules don’t mention equine as such because as I have stated above you could legitimately be farming horses. For clarity it’s what you ( or your customers ) do with the horse that would or wouldn’t qualify the keeping them as agriculture.
I hope this information helps you. I don’t mind having a sensible discussion with you on here, but if you decide to be aggressive or abusive I will withdraw from the dialogue. Thanks

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in response to:
1. i never said you where paid to be in those discussions did i? and your initial response suggested you didn't give a monkeys! I do wonder how many equine where invited to all these talks, cant say i know of any round here? so what did they just select who they felt would say "yes sir no sir"?
2 and 3. well that barely makes sense, its not about what you think horses should be classified as or not classified as the FACT IS by the governments own admissions livestock description and agriculture is what it is defined as via their own ACTS that actually ARE law (well presumably at least!), and this statement is complete rubbish "Just because you graze your ground with horses doesn’t make it agricultural" ...why then when you sell or buy the property is it then legally classed as agricultural land? it appears to me some people just say what ever suits at the time it suits!
4. mmm never even heard of anything of the sort! so is there actual proof of law please? because the words "as far as I'm aware" is not proof of anything.
5. here's the funny thing, horses are kept till they die....when they die they have to be taken away ...which is then used FOR MEAT that is what you just said ...right? just they charge more these days to take them away, because of animal activism, trouble is that never changed anything, other than the price paid to get them taken away!
6 Laws are created by a government, but that government needs the consent of the governed, otherwise the only thing they are creating is corporate statute, which requires consent of two opposing parties signing agreements to make the legally binding, which is fine if you can fool people into believing something's law then conning them into a signature of agreement....corporations do that all the time... mmm anyway we may have left the EU, but we didn't leave United nations did we? and what's article 21 of the universal Declaration of human rights state again? ... trouble is these days the government are nothing but a corporation all with nice little dun and Bradstreet numbers, why would that be? because they are for profit and greed, yet people want to believe they are sovereign and for the people funny that? funnier than that is the part where extinction rebellion, David Icke HS2 and STOP HS2 are all part of the same you relaise even queeny has her properties listed under dun and bradstreet? (just to name a few), with their very own dun numbers...but hey... i could go on, but then we would be drift completely off point, i certainly will be at minimum be writing to HMRC and asking questions that's for sure!
7.fair enough, because there are or maybe other reasons some horse yards are accepted.
Finally i don't get aggressive, unless people purposely wind me up.... or misrepresent law! Hey now... there's a question, does the queens stables get to use red? does her yacht? HVO looks interesting i have to say!?! anyhow must fly!

Wellytrack said:

Nothing is stopping you looking after your horses. You just have to pay some more to do so, so yes, your just being selfish.

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Err no its not actually there are practical reasons for the questions than just me sweaty, so NO I'm not. but do feel free to be stubborn and see it your own way... good bye

stop accepting! said:

Err no its not actually there are practical reasons for the questions than just me sweaty, so NO I'm not. but do feel free to be stubborn and see it your own way... good bye

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Doesn’t matter if your horses are fed a diet of buttery scones and sugar puffs they are leisure and you have been told so. Looks like your fairly stubborn on this issue.

Think some people need to get off their high horse

I use mine for crop walking

Reeks Panic pee of Pot of Not to

Wellytrack said:

Doesn’t matter if your horses are fed a diet of buttery scones and sugar puffs they are leisure and you have been told so. Looks like your fairly stubborn on this issue.

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oooh "you've been told so" im not stubborn dear, im asking questions some of you cant handle...thats not my problem....and oh yes sure we have to pay more to look after our horse's , sure now wood prices have sky rocketed, vets taking the pee classifying horses as pets just to claim more money and racket the insurence industry to boot, oh and yes now we have to go onto white diesel.... cos of some shirt and tie pr*ck in london who decided to change the definition of agricultural land and the meaning of live stock, then call it a law when its clearly an order and bit of regulation shoved up around existing laws! appears to me its got more to do with money grabbing, given energy industries have had a nice profit over recent years... and they need to finish that stupid rail line Hoplessly Slow 2! oh you'll be glad to know that runs straight through our entire business....because that's how selfish i really am....im that fooking selfish im concerned about all our futures here....yes sure, real selfish that "sunny jim".... but hey thats only the half of it... and you aint got half a clue! nevermind a!?!

stop accepting! said:

oooh "you've been told so" im not stubborn dear, im asking questions some of you cant handle...thats not my problem....and oh yes sure we have to pay more to look after our horse's , sure now wood prices have sky rocketed, vets taking the pee classifying horses as pets just to claim more money and racket the insurence industry to boot, oh and yes now we have to go onto white diesel.... cos of some shirt and tie pr*ck in london who decided to change the definition of agricultural land and the meaning of live stock, then call it a law when its clearly an order and bit of regulation shoved up around existing laws! appears to me its got more to do with money grabbing, given energy industries have had a nice profit over recent years... and they need to finish that stupid rail line Hoplessly Slow 2! oh you'll be glad to know that runs straight through our entire business....because that's how selfish i really am....im that fooking selfish im concerned about all our futures here....yes sure, real selfish that "sunny jim".... but hey thats only the half of it... and you aint got half a clue! nevermind a!?!

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Your delusional. Findus express your neddies and buy a JetSki, be a lot more craic.

stop accepting! said:

oooh "you've been told so" im not stubborn dear, im asking questions some of you cant handle...thats not my problem....and oh yes sure we have to pay more to look after our horse's , sure now wood prices have sky rocketed, vets taking the pee classifying horses as pets just to claim more money and racket the insurence industry to boot, oh and yes now we have to go onto white diesel.... cos of some shirt and tie pr*ck in london who decided to change the definition of agricultural land and the meaning of live stock, then call it a law when its clearly an order and bit of regulation shoved up around existing laws! appears to me its got more to do with money grabbing, given energy industries have had a nice profit over recent years... and they need to finish that stupid rail line Hoplessly Slow 2! oh you'll be glad to know that runs straight through our entire business....because that's how selfish i really am....im that fooking selfish im concerned about all our futures here....yes sure, real selfish that "sunny jim".... but hey thats only the half of it... and you aint got half a clue! nevermind a!?!

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Christ you are giving me a headache, I’d hate to live with you.

I think you are in the wrong place here, this is a peaceful refuge for most!

Anyone else think they should start putting vat on pet food? That would include horses too, unless they’re bred for meat (which none are).

Doing it for the kids said:

Christ you are giving me a headache, I’d hate to live with you.

I think you are in the wrong place here, this is a peaceful refuge for most!

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Highland Mule said:

Anyone else think they should start putting vat on pet food? That would include horses too, unless they’re bred for meat (which none are).

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I wasn't trying to say they where actually bred for meat PMSL! I just merely pointed out they go for meat anyway at the end of their lives... and that's the irony...because they may as well be deemed as bred for such because the only difference, in the end, is they have someone called an owner in between whist alive, and given that's generally the final fate (whether some like to admit it or not...it is the truth generally), unless you can afford to be cremating a 1ton horse for the mantle piece or to spread in your garden....i mean some do these days, everyone to their own i guess!

stop accepting! said:

I wasn't trying to say they where actually bred for meat PMSL! I just merely pointed out they go for meat anyway at the end of their lives... and that's the irony...because they may as well be deemed as bred for such because the only difference, in the end, is they have someone called an owner in between whist alive, and given that's generally the final fate (whether some like to admit it or not...it is the truth generally), unless you can afford to be cremating a 1ton horse for the mantle piece or to spread in your garden....i mean some do these days, everyone to their own i guess!

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Except they mostly don’t, do they? Pretty much every horse is kept beyond its time with a dose or two of Bute and then has to be buried - an option not available to those of us who have bovine fallen stock.

You’ve swerved the issue though - why should anyone get tax relief for their hobby?

I have a question for you @stop accepting! . . Considering you have an answer to everything and are a typical up your own arse equine who needs to give their head a wobble and realise the world does not revolve around them and their happy hacker going out on a plod up a main road and looking down your nose at people and trying to give authority to everyone else on the road who pays tax to be there, waving your arms and shouting at people for being so in considerate for not doing an emergency stop to let you by while your donkey sh!ts all over the road which is fine. . Dog poo you would get a fine for may I add. Sorry going off subject there. . Back to my question, How would one remove a dead horse from a stable? Asking for a friend. Thanks

try being a contractor with a couple of diggers and dumpers etc ,white diesel is a killer

br jones said:

try being a contractor with a couple of diggers and dumpers etc ,white diesel is a killer

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Point I was failing to make earlier, billions has been added to quarrying and processing costs, added on to building costs, equals increase in mortgage or rent costs. But sure, dobbin who lives in the field full of yellow plants may incur a few pennies more to look after.

Wellytrack said:

Your delusional. Findus express your neddies and buy a JetSki, be a lot more craic.

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Wellytrack said:

Your delusional. Findus express your neddies and buy a JetSki, be a lot more craic.

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mmm....ok if you say so!

Highland Mule said:

Except they mostly don’t, do they? Pretty much every horse is kept beyond its time with a dose or two of Bute and then has to be buried - an option not available to those of us who have bovine fallen stock.

You’ve swerved the issue though - why should anyone get tax relief for their hobby?

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AgriiMark said:

I have a question for you @stop accepting! . . Considering you have an answer to everything and are a typical up your own arse equine who needs to give their head a wobble and realise the world does not revolve around them and their happy hacker going out on a plod up a main road and looking down your nose at people and trying to give authority to everyone else on the road who pays tax to be there, waving your arms and shouting at people for being so in considerate for not doing an emergency stop to let you by while your donkey sh!ts all over the road which is fine. . Dog poo you would get a fine for may I add. Sorry going off subject there. . Back to my question, How would one remove a dead horse from a stable? Asking for a friend. Thanks

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I really am beginning to see why in general there is no unity AT ALL between farmers and equine AT ALL with the comments i've witnessed on this page, oh im not saying the sun shines out of my arse by all means... both have a responsibility to look after the country side, both have agricultural land and rely on the same tools for A JOB, and lets be clear im refering to YARDS.... NOT LIVERY INDIVIDUALS....AND THAT IS NOT SELFISH BECAUSE IM REFERRING TO BUSINESS USE....one little point a lot of arrogant dip sh1ts here seem to be missing! And NO I don't have an answer for everything, and if it appears i do , then its called experience from DIFFERENT backgrounds not just ONE, doesn't mean i know EVERYTHING, but then why are you even going to listen with comments like that! So perhaps you should pull your head out of your own arse, you might actually see more.....you might realise some in the world don't get the chance or choice in one job for their entire life these days, which means they end up with a Varied experience and outlook on life, and its also called reading pages and trying to make head nor tail of WTF is actually going on!

and in answer to your question .... if the stables in an awkward place how do you think you would deal with it? because the likely hood is it aint going to be all that much different if its in an awkward place. Rope-tractor-and-carefully pull it out, especially if the removal people cant get in there, but then that's why small tractors are useful, they can get places big yankie tractors cant!.... but that's an entirely different conversation in itself! You may not like what i have to say, or the way i say it, and i am sorry but I don't care, because i cant be arsed fluffing it up all nicey nice, and i can only talk from the experiences i have witnessed and been a part of!

are you saying its ok to ban Livery BUSINESSES, yet its ok for GOLF courses and pleasure vessels/craft? DOES THE QUEEN get to ue diesel for HMS pleasure cruise vessels and her own, do rich business men also get away with it, red dieseling off to foreign destinations, to fancy yacht clubs and shows? do pleasure cruisers get to continue trotting round the globe on such? they are all pleasure in the end!? like i said originally i would have understood a LIMIT, that would have made sense, given equine don't use tractors etc on the SAME level as farmers, they don't need to. but a complete ban, given golf clubs and social event, and even TRACTOR PULLING RALLIES which is also entertainment (recently overturned!) aswell as the for mentioned possibilities....are allowed to continue the use!? and your having a go at me? really! and your calling me selfish...WRONG....you either treat all entertainment and leisure the SAME (which in a fashion despite the increased cost i could live with) or you stir problems by favouritism which is what i am seeing! Nobody including me is saying farmers shouldn't get to use it, and i have considered alternate, but research tells me HVO and bio, isn't all these companies make out it is.....again profit and greed!

Forkdriver said:

Isn't it heart warming to know that we have less red tape since Brexit, and I voted for it

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I thought that was the whole idea of Brexit just so that we could clearly see what prats we are electing & boy does it show!!!

ONE MORE PROBLEM PEOPLE SEEM TO OVERLOOK its all well and good saying red diesel theft may go up, but if businesses have to go to white diesel which IS far more untraceable and expensive, and people are forced to store that instead, who do you think people will rob? those with the red diesel that takes effort to steel and carries risk of being caught, or those with white diesel, that doesnt require any work after being stolen?

the only alternative to avoid this is to go to a garage every 5 minutes in a car, and contribute to fuel stations having shortages, and pollution in general isn't it? is that not a bit backwards, and using fuel every 5 minutes to get fuel!!! but if you cant store or get more than 30ltrs at a time, how many garages and trips would people have to take just to do some work?

stop accepting! said:

mmm....ok if you say so!



I really am beginning to see why in general there is no unity AT ALL between farmers and equine AT ALL with the comments i've witnessed on this page, oh im not saying the sun shines out of my arse by all means... both have a responsibility to look after the country side, both have agricultural land and rely on the same tools for A JOB, and lets be clear im refering to YARDS.... NOT LIVERY INDIVIDUALS....AND THAT IS NOT SELFISH BECAUSE IM REFERRING TO BUSINESS USE....one little point a lot of arrogant dip sh1ts here seem to be missing! And NO I don't have an answer for everything, and if it appears i do , then its called experience from DIFFERENT backgrounds not just ONE, doesn't mean i know EVERYTHING, but then why are you even going to listen with comments like that! So perhaps you should pull your head out of your own arse, you might actually see more.....you might realise some in the world don't get the chance or choice in one job for their entire life these days, which means they end up with a Varied experience and outlook on life, and its also called reading pages and trying to make head nor tail of WTF is actually going on!

and in answer to your question .... if the stables in an awkward place how do you think you would deal with it? because the likely hood is it aint going to be all that much different if its in an awkward place. Rope-tractor-and-carefully pull it out, especially if the removal people cant get in there, but then that's why small tractors are useful, they can get places big yankie tractors cant!.... but that's an entirely different conversation in itself! You may not like what i have to say, or the way i say it, and i am sorry but I don't care, because i cant be arsed fluffing it up all nicey nice, and i can only talk from the experiences i have witnessed and been a part of!

are you saying its ok to ban Livery BUSINESSES, yet its ok for GOLF courses and pleasure vessels/craft? DOES THE QUEEN get to ue diesel for HMS pleasure cruise vessels and her own, do rich business men also get away with it, red dieseling off to foreign destinations, to fancy yacht clubs and shows? do pleasure cruisers get to continue trotting round the globe on such? they are all pleasure in the end!? like i said originally i would have understood a LIMIT, that would have made sense, given equine don't use tractors etc on the SAME level as farmers, they don't need to. but a complete ban, given golf clubs and social event, and even TRACTOR PULLING RALLIES which is also entertainment (recently overturned!) aswell as the for mentioned possibilities....are allowed to continue the use!? and your having a go at me? really! and your calling me selfish...WRONG....you either treat all entertainment and leisure the SAME (which in a fashion despite the increased cost i could live with) or you stir problems by favouritism which is what i am seeing! Nobody including me is saying farmers shouldn't get to use it, and i have considered alternate, but research tells me HVO and bio, isn't all these companies make out it is.....again profit and greed!

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I skipped the lot as soon as you mentioned arrogant dip sh1ts, if you can't keep it civil don't bother.

1500 litres this arvo, white diesel, we don’t have “red”, or any fuel SPECIFICALLY for “agriculture”
Last time I did the comparison, your “on farm” costs for diesel were lower than ours . . .
talk about “unfair advantages”