Overseeding clover- which one??

Derrick Hughes · Apr 2, 2022

neilo said:
You should have got a Simtech. Seed stays mixed and the foam rollers mean it’s metered accurately regardless of a mix of sizes.

I suspect all box drills would be similar at seed not separating though?

I'm only suspecting it may separate ,not tried it yet ,but I've heard of slug pellets doing so

milkloss · Apr 2, 2022

Red clover. White doesn’t really fix much N in my opinion and certainly not enough for a bumper crop of silage.

Humble Village Farmer · Apr 2, 2022

Derrick Hughes said:
Has anyone tried overseeding Vetch into a grass ley ?

Yes, only once. A drought followed and I haven't tried since

Kevtherev · Apr 2, 2022

neilo said:
You should have got a Simtech. Seed stays mixed and the foam rollers mean it’s metered accurately regardless of a mix of sizes.

I suspect all box drills would be similar at seed not separating though?

That’s why a proper drill man stops every so often gets off his seat and checks

Oh and to let the pigs cool down.

som farmer · Apr 2, 2022

milkloss said:
Red clover. White doesn’t really fix much N in my opinion and certainly not enough for a bumper crop of silage.

those of our leys with lots of w clover, have more grass, and are darker green, than those that don't, and w clover has pretty well grown all winter. Red clover hasn't really got going yet.
But l think to obtain the amount of N from clover, we are told, everything has to be 'right', soil structure, drainage and competition. So perhaps half, what they claim, might be nearer the mark.
One of the 'things' about subterranean clover, is that it takes over, smothers weeds, needs no N, and if you are very careful, and sensible, you can feed nearly pure stands to dairy cattle, or so it is claimed. Nearly a wonder plant !
The grazing lucerne also looks interesting, l have grown it pure in the past with success, as a cutting only crop. As with all things, between what the 'experts' say, and what actually grows, are not quite the same sometimes.
There again, a lot of claims come closer, if you get your grazing system 'right', as far as possible, we try not to graze a paddock, for more than 24 hrs, before cows are out, sometimes only 1 grazing, 12 hrs, not 2. We have become very efficient at moving fences, sometimes up to 6 a day.

Derrick Hughes · Apr 2, 2022

som farmer said:
those of our leys with lots of w clover, have more grass, and are darker green, than those that don't, and w clover has pretty well grown all winter. Red clover hasn't really got going yet.
But l think to obtain the amount of N from clover, we are told, everything has to be 'right', soil structure, drainage and competition. So perhaps half, what they claim, might be nearer the mark.
One of the 'things' about subterranean clover, is that it takes over, smothers weeds, needs no N, and if you are very careful, and sensible, you can feed nearly pure stands to dairy cattle, or so it is claimed. Nearly a wonder plant !
The grazing lucerne also looks interesting, l have grown it pure in the past with success, as a cutting only crop. As with all things, between what the 'experts' say, and what actually grows, are not quite the same sometimes.
There again, a lot of claims come closer, if you get your grazing system 'right', as far as possible, we try not to graze a paddock, for more than 24 hrs, before cows are out, sometimes only 1 grazing, 12 hrs, not 2. We have become very efficient at moving fences, sometimes up to 6 a day.

Main thing with us is P&K and PH , our farm is very lime hungry, get those right Clover will thrive here . You have to know your land

milkloss · Apr 2, 2022

som farmer said:
Nearly a wonder plant !

That's the bit that makes it disappointing. I will agree that large leafed white clover will improve a grazing sward no end both for quality and growth.

Derrick Hughes · Apr 2, 2022

milkloss said:
That's the bit that makes it disappointing. I will agree that large leafed white clover will improve a grazing sward no end both for quality and growth.

Problem is large leaf is the least persistent for grazing , I put a 3 way blend in the drill here, large medium and small

som farmer · Apr 3, 2022

Derrick Hughes said:
Problem is large leaf is the least persistent for grazing , I put a 3 way blend in the drill here, large medium and small

can you get hold of subterranean clover ? Would love to trial some, thought l had located some in EI, till the pay now stage, when it said 'unavailable !
We are continually told, climate is warming up, so new plants, should become available, by a warmer climate here. Unless we trial those plants, we won't know how they perform.
Some might work, others may fail, we simply don't know.
What we do know, legumes fix N, some more than others, and are higher in protein, to feed cattle.

Derrick Hughes · Apr 3, 2022

som farmer said:
can you get hold of subterranean clover ? Would love to trial some, thought l had located some in EI, till the pay now stage, when it said 'unavailable !
We are continually told, climate is warming up, so new plants, should become available, by a warmer climate here. Unless we trial those plants, we won't know how they perform.
Some might work, others may fail, we simply don't know.
What we do know, legumes fix N, some more than others, and are higher in protein, to feed cattle.

I will ask the guy it the office who buys the seed

JD-Kid · Apr 4, 2022

som farmer said:
can you get hold of subterranean clover ? Would love to trial some, thought l had located some in EI, till the pay now stage, when it said 'unavailable !
We are continually told, climate is warming up, so new plants, should become available, by a warmer climate here. Unless we trial those plants, we won't know how they perform.
Some might work, others may fail, we simply don't know.
What we do know, legumes fix N, some more than others, and are higher in protein, to feed cattle.

sub is a bit of a pain as has to set seed so can't be grazed while seed set also needs to be quite open ground cover in autumn to strike so a thicker paddock may choke it out ..
some of the other annuals might be better to look at

som farmer · Apr 4, 2022

JD-Kid said:
sub is a bit of a pain as has to set seed so can't be grazed while seed set also needs to be quite open ground cover in autumn to strike so a thicker paddock may choke it out ..
some of the other annuals might be better to look at

i'll look at anything, and trial it, if l can get the seed. Its not only worth while to try, its also very interesting as well, reckon l will l enjoy the challenges, regardless of failures.

Derrick Hughes · Apr 4, 2022

som farmer said:
i'll look at anything, and trial it, if l can get the seed. Its not only worth while to try, its also very interesting as well, reckon l will l enjoy the challenges, regardless of failures.

I'm the same ,

nxy · Jun 18, 2022

Derrick Hughes said:
I'm the same ,

Subterranean clover has been used over here for a while between rows of vines as a permanent cover. Some people are now trying it as an alternative to white and red clovers. I am thinking of adding some to mixtures this autumn partly because I have now found a cheaper source of seed. The variety I am being offered is Seaton Park, but I have no idea if its suitable for my conditions. How do you manage it to get it to set seed?

According to the French it was originally a french plant that no one took any interest in until it was taken to Australia where they discovered it was a useful grazing crop.

We are now importing it back to France.

Global ovine · Jun 18, 2022

JD-Kid said:
sub is a bit of a pain as has to set seed so can't be grazed while seed set also needs to be quite open ground cover in autumn to strike so a thicker paddock may choke it out ..
some of the other annuals might be better to look at

Dead right. Sub Clover is ideally suited to regions that experience regular summer dry conditions and get significant rainfall in late autumn/early winter.
Some newer Sub cultivars offer more DM production before flowering and their stolons can cover a larger area.
These also contain much lower levels of formanonetin, the precursor of the phyto-oestrogen made by the rumen flora (exactly the same as in older Red Clover cultivars), being much safer to feed ewes that are older than puberty.
The use of Sub Clover really gets down to the right plant in the right place. If during summer your pastures usually remain green, then stick with White (cultivar choice depends on grazing intensity and grazing system ..... rotational or set stocked) as these will offer more DM and N over a longer period than Sub.
But if your climate dictates a sprint race to get animals grown before the dry sets in, Sub is an ideal legume and is more tolerant of soil types than lucerne.

nxy · Jun 19, 2022

Global ovine said:
Dead right. Sub Clover is ideally suited to regions that experience regular summer dry conditions and get significant rainfall in late autumn/early winter.
Some newer Sub cultivars offer more DM production before flowering and their stolons can cover a larger area.
These also contain much lower levels of formanonetin, the precursor of the phyto-oestrogen made by the rumen flora (exactly the same as in older Red Clover cultivars), being much safer to feed ewes that are older than puberty.
The use of Sub Clover really gets down to the right plant in the right place. If during summer your pastures usually remain green, then stick with White (cultivar choice depends on grazing intensity and grazing system ..... rotational or set stocked) as these will offer more DM and N over a longer period than Sub.
But if your climate dictates a sprint race to get animals grown before the dry sets in, Sub is an ideal legume and is more tolerant of soil types than lucerne.

Regular dry summers and significant autumn/early winter rainfall sounds exactly like here.

som farmer · Jun 19, 2022

we are trialling several clovers here, for our own judgement, sub was one l couldn't get seed for.
We seem to dry out every summer now, so learning to work around that. If we can get excellent early growth, and yield, we can/hope to make enough decent fodder then, to give a lot more summer grazing, the cutting grounds, move into grazing, and hope shortfall, if any, is avoided by maize, or late summer/autumn cut, Sub clover, looks interesting, from that context.
Sods law, we will now have a run of wet summers !

nxy · Jun 19, 2022

som farmer said:
we are trialling several clovers here, for our own judgement, sub was one l couldn't get seed for.
We seem to dry out every summer now, so learning to work around that. If we can get excellent early growth, and yield, we can/hope to make enough decent fodder then, to give a lot more summer grazing, the cutting grounds, move into grazing, and hope shortfall, if any, is avoided by maize, or late summer/autumn cut, Sub clover, looks interesting, from that context.
Sods law, we will now have a run of wet summers !

In a normal year here we feed between a quarter and a third of our hay or silage in the summer, there is almost always nothing to graze for at least two months a year. At the other end of the year though we might have cows out till december.

sheepdogtrail · Jun 19, 2022

som farmer said:
we will be trialling the following
grazing lucerne
spring vetch
aslike
crimson
beerseen
sweet clover
we have balsana clover overseeded in swards already
chicory and plantain grows well here, chicory too well perhaps.
plot sown pure, and then some 'pick and mix'.
subterranean clover looks interesting, good N fixing, thick growth to help smother out weeds, and with all herbs/clover mixes, weeds are the problem. Although with multi cut, fresh dock leaf's are 25% protein, or so l am told, so as long as they don't seed, not that much of a problem.
Plantain, on a very dry hill, has, in one year, pretty well reseeded itself, and taken over, not a problem, a dry spell last summer f####d the rye grass, yr 2 of a 4/5 year ley, and the cows love itView attachment 1026468 View attachment 1026469the 2 pics, are about 10 yds apart, 1st is on 'top' of the steep bank, the 2nd on the bank itself, the bank is very exposed to weather, not a lot between it, and the Bristol Channel.

That looks very good. It could be used as a Proestrus ration if you have such a need. Otherwise, that makes happy critters. It should persist for years.

I can send you some sub-terrains if you can't find some in your hood. Just let me know.

som farmer · Jun 19, 2022

sheepdogtrail said:
That looks very good. It could be used as a Proestrus ration if you have such a need. Otherwise, that makes happy critters. It should persist for years.

I can send you some sub-terrains if you can't find some in your hood. Just let me know.

thanks
looking forward to our trial plots, couple of years, or less, hadn't even heard of some, let alone know what they look like !

Overseeding clover- which one??

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