Overseeding clover- which one??

Mixedupfarmer · Jun 19, 2022

som farmer said:
we are trialling several clovers here, for our own judgement, sub was one l couldn't get seed for.
We seem to dry out every summer now, so learning to work around that. If we can get excellent early growth, and yield, we can/hope to make enough decent fodder then, to give a lot more summer grazing, the cutting grounds, move into grazing, and hope shortfall, if any, is avoided by maize, or late summer/autumn cut, Sub clover, looks interesting, from that context.
Sods law, we will now have a run of wet summers !

Some sub available on smartseeds.co.uk, is £££££ though! I am wondering whether to try some as we struggle to establish and keep white clovers I think mainly due to long dry spells, heavier land cracking open and heavy grazing with the sheep.

som farmer · Jun 19, 2022

Mixedupfarmer said:
Some sub available on smartseeds.co.uk. I am wondering whether to try some as we struggle to establish and keep white clovers I think mainly due to long dry spells, heavier land cracking open and heavy grazing with the sheep.

years ago, we could easily cope with dry spells, but now, it seems to get harder, yr by yr,
we have tried all sorts of things, but the main ones that have seemed to work the best, are rotational grazing, cows in/out of paddocks, with back fences, 24/36 hrs on any 1 'patch', and stopping most ploughing, now a 'last resort'. And dry ground grasses, clovers, and herbs, the herbs, here, plantain and chicory, grow like weeds, cows like them, they are about the last things to stop growing. One very dry field, plantain has become the dominant plant, through self seeding, in two years, clover the second, chicory wasn't sown there. The main point in that, there is feed there, whereas without it, there wouldn't be, and cows like them.
Regen type farming, takes a hammering from many, but many of the suggestions, are very sensible, cost effective and easy. I prefer to call it sensible farming, and there is no rule book, just pick out the things, you think might work for you. That's what we did, and they do work.

sheepdogtrail · Jun 19, 2022

Mixedupfarmer said:
Some sub available on smartseeds.co.uk, is £££££ though! I am wondering whether to try some as we struggle to establish and keep white clovers I think mainly due to long dry spells, heavier land cracking open and heavy grazing with the sheep.

Sub is designed for light grazing as it It needs at least 45 days from flower to seed drop to keep it persistent. It is very tolerant of conditions and soil types. Just management of that paddock might be different.

Here are three photos of white, red and a sub growing near to each other last June. This was a fallow paddock. All of them are older (unimproved) types. The seed sets on these are all different. They are surviving as a part of a community.

Mixedupfarmer · Jun 19, 2022

sheepdogtrail said:
Sub is designed for light grazing as it It needs at least 45 days from flower to seed drop to keep it persistent. It is very tolerant of conditions and soil types. Just management of that paddock might be different.

Here are three photos of white, red and a sub growing near to each other last June. This was a fallow paddock. All of them are older (unimproved) types. The seed sets on these are all different. They are surviving as a part of a community.

Going to struggle on the 45 days bit here, as intensive sheep grazing. Will have to have another go at small leaved white clover. We also seem to suffer from pea and bean weevil eating clovers, particularly during establishment.

neilo · Jun 19, 2022

Mixedupfarmer said:
Going to struggle on the 45 days bit here, as intensive sheep grazing. Will have to have another go at small leaved white clover. We also seem to suffer from pea and bean weevil eating clovers, particularly during establishment.

Aberlasting looks interesting for your (& my) scenario. It’s a cross between white and Caucasian clover that spreads by rhizomes under the soil, as well as stolons above. That makes it both more drought resistant & cold tolerant than white, but also more able to stand grazing.

I’m using it in reseeding mixes and for overseeding (Germinal’s ‘Abersheep’ clover mix has it in, if you can’t get a straight).

Mixedupfarmer · Jun 19, 2022

neilo said:
Aberlasting looks interesting for your (& my) scenario. It’s a cross between white and Caucasian clover that spreads by rhizomes under the soil, as well as stolons above. That makes it both more drought resistant & cold tolerant than white, but also more able to stand grazing.

I’m using it in reseeding mixes and for overseeding (Germinal’s ‘Abersheep’ clover mix has it in, if you can’t get a straight).

Thanks for that, I will look in to it. Really need legumes now the nitrogen price is so high, and will also help mid season grazing when the dry weather takes hold and grasses try to seed or die!

Samcowman · Jun 19, 2022

@som farmer how is the crimson clover going that you planted?

neilo · Jun 19, 2022

Mixedupfarmer said:
Thanks for that, I will look in to it. Really need legumes now the nitrogen price is so high, and will also help mid season grazing when the dry weather takes hold and grasses try to seed or die!

The 4 fields i reseeded last year all had Aberlasting (as well as normal WB & a kilo of rc) in the mix. They all have masses of clover in now, even though the dry weather has meant the grasses are little more than stalks with seed heads.

som farmer · Jun 19, 2022

Samcowman said:
@som farmer how is the crimson clover going that you planted?

might start germinating, now we have had a sprinkle, all sown 2 weeks ago.
we have mixed some with fert and spun on, as an experiment.

som farmer · Jun 19, 2022

neilo said:
The 4 fields i reseeded last year all had Aberlasting (as well as normal WB & a kilo of rc) in the mix. They all have masses of clover in now, even though the dry weather has meant the grasses are little more than stalks with seed heads.

its the 'little more than seed heads' bit, we are trying to avoid, prg is a pain in the butt, when we dry out. That is why we are trying other grasses etc.

Mixedupfarmer · Jun 19, 2022

som farmer said:
its the 'little more than seed heads' bit, we are trying to avoid, prg is a pain in the butt, when we dry out. That is why we are trying other grasses etc.

What grasses are you trying, and which are looking more promising?

neilo · Jun 19, 2022

som farmer said:
its the 'little more than seed heads' bit, we are trying to avoid, prg is a pain in the butt, when we dry out. That is why we are trying other grasses etc.

Some of our PRG is holding up well, but the grasses in those 4 fields looks to be struggling a bit with the dry, but was fantastic at the shoulders of the season. On the plus side, the grass going like that now is allowing the clovers more light to grow, and some shade from the heat of last week? A topper will reset it soon enough.

Ffermer Bach · Jun 19, 2022

som farmer said:
we are trialling several clovers here, for our own judgement, sub was one l couldn't get seed for.
We seem to dry out every summer now, so learning to work around that. If we can get excellent early growth, and yield, we can/hope to make enough decent fodder then, to give a lot more summer grazing, the cutting grounds, move into grazing, and hope shortfall, if any, is avoided by maize, or late summer/autumn cut, Sub clover, looks interesting, from that context.
Sods law, we will now have a run of wet summers !

I wonder does farming in a way that lifts soil organic matter improve the water holding capacity of the soil, so there is more there for the dry spells?

nxy · Jun 19, 2022

We have moved away from prg as our main grass, for summer grazing tall fescue takes some beating but the cows don't like it. Give them two fields in different grasses they will always eat the other one first before eating the tall fescue.

We have had several exceptional crops of crimson clover but its really only one big cut for us, though last year we reseeded egyptian after crimson and it was worth doing though not stunning!. The problem with these annual clovers is the cost time and effort in constantly redrilling. Something else perennial or self seeding has to be worth a try. Hence the sub clover, seed here for an unimproved variety has got cheaper because of vineyard use. They are not looking for yield though so the varieties may not be the best. Price for inoculated seed is from 6.50€ a kilo so not silly money.

We are on acid soil but with a bit of effort and lots of lime a small trial of Luzerne in its second year is showing some potential.

som farmer · Jun 19, 2022

cocksfoot, tall, meadow red fesques, timothy, and festuloliums -x between rye grass, and fesques. replacing most of the prg.
these mixes have been sown in the driest fields, last year, we had moisture, but l can say, they were on a par, with prg, this year, we cut some, yield comparable with prg again. But the main advantage, is a longer grazing 'window', they don't run to head like prg. Combined with the herbs, we find they combine well together.
I think so much research/new varieties of rye grasses, has happened, that the newer, higher producing varieties, are fine in trial plots, under ideal conditions, that when faced with high stress conditions, they don't live up to their expectations.
Looked at some 'wild' cocksfoot, growing in an old orchard we graze, and can fully understand why we went 'off' it, its coarse horrible stuff, what we grow now, is very different. I think the answer to mixes, lies with finding what's best suited to your farm.

som farmer · Jun 19, 2022

Ffermer Bach said:
I wonder does farming in a way that lifts soil organic matter improve the water holding capacity of the soil, so there is more there for the dry spells?

l can answer that, with no, then add, yet. It is one of our 'aims/hopes', but haven't seen it so far, but early days. But soil is improving, mainly by not so much ploughing. Quite easy to tell, far more seagulls, follow the cultivator, and ####### moles are returning. Both conclusive signs of better soils, which worms, fungi, and bacteria, produce for us.

Ffermer Bach · Jun 19, 2022

som farmer said:
cocksfoot, tall, meadow red fesques, timothy, and festuloliums -x between rye grass, and fesques. replacing most of the prg.
these mixes have been sown in the driest fields, last year, we had moisture, but l can say, they were on a par, with prg, this year, we cut some, yield comparable with prg again. But the main advantage, is a longer grazing 'window', they don't run to head like prg. Combined with the herbs, we find they combine well together.
I think so much research/new varieties of rye grasses, has happened, that the newer, higher producing varieties, are fine in trial plots, under ideal conditions, that when faced with high stress conditions, they don't live up to their expectations.
Looked at some 'wild' cocksfoot, growing in an old orchard we graze, and can fully understand why we went 'off' it, its coarse horrible stuff, what we grow now, is very different. I think the answer to mixes, lies with finding what's best suited to your farm.

and, plant breeding has all been to suit to agriculture that relies on NPK from a bag, so we haven't put the effort into improving species that rely more on the soil food web.

som farmer · Jun 19, 2022

Ffermer Bach said:
and, plant breeding has all been to suit to agriculture that relies on NPK from a bag, so we haven't put the effort into improving species that rely more on the soil food web.

said to someone last week, if the same money, that has been spent, on research/development, relying on chemical fert and sprays, been spent on research/improvement, of the pre fert days, where would we be today ?

Ffermer Bach · Jun 19, 2022

som farmer said:
said to someone last week, if the same money, that has been spent, on research/development, relying on chemical fert and sprays, been spent on research/improvement, of the pre fert days, where would we be today ?

that is where I am really narked off with government, as that is a role they should be doing rather than saying leave it up to industry, as the supply side for inputs has a strangle hold over farming - big structural problem that is exacerbated by government connivance.

som farmer · Jun 19, 2022

Mixedupfarmer said:
Some sub available on smartseeds.co.uk, is £££££ though! I am wondering whether to try some as we struggle to establish and keep white clovers I think mainly due to long dry spells, heavier land cracking open and heavy grazing with the sheep.

yes it is pricey ! But, could end up cheap if it works, anyway, ordered a bit, enough for another trial plot !
we overseeded some poorer pp last aut, with balsana clover, variable remarks, but, now cut, quite a bit of clover seedlings germinating/growing, whether balsana, we will have to wait and see.

Overseeding clover- which one??

Member

Member

Member

Attachments

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

0 %

Up to 25%

25-50%

50-75%

75-100%

100% I’ve had enough of farming!

Share this page