Overseeding clover- which one??

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
yes it is pricey ! But, could end up cheap if it works, anyway, ordered a bit, enough for another trial plot !
we overseeded some poorer pp last aut, with balsana clover, variable remarks, but, now cut, quite a bit of clover seedlings germinating/growing, whether balsana, we will have to wait and see.

@Kevtherev started a thread on balansa on here several years ago, and a couple of us tried it in various scenarios. The next year, Germinal gave me some Fixation balansa (supposed to be better than Paradana) to try, and I did the same. It grew tall, made wet silage, then quite rapidly disappeared. It was a bit of a disappointment, but interesting to try, like a lot of things.
 

Ffermer Bach

Member
Livestock Farmer
looking at our organic neighbours, they just seem to swap fert/spray for diesel, others seem to make hay, from buttercups, never been to impressed with organic, though they do have some better ideas.
I asked a question on Friday, at DaBwy2022 about the merits of either weed wiping with roundup or topping to kill rushes (we are organic so can't use a weedwiper anyway), one uses chemicals that are not good for soil life, the other burns through non renewable diesel which again for the planet is not good.

I was not overly happy with the answer from the panel, basically, the way you are farming is wrong if you have fields full of rushes, your soil management is not good if there are rushes there. So not overly impressed with the answer given.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
never been 'sure' of organic farming, theory is right, but somehow l cannot relate perfect cabbages, with no insect/bug control. No doubt it can be done, but dedication must be good. I watch 2 neighbours, continually ploughing, either green manure in, or annual crops. And followed by a thin coating of slurry.
And yet, l can see, and do, the regen principles, of rebuilding soil fertility, and structure. Using non inversion tillage, and using best principle cropping. Rather think those principles, are more friendly to the environment, than some organic principles.
There again, my views may be well off the mark.
 

In the pit

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Pembrokeshire
Prg and white clover here and this year I’ll hit 10 grazings even though we’re autumn calving
Trouble is with or these legumes it takes them 5/6 months to get growing ,which is no good if you want cows out in jan/feb . So then you’ve got the issue that a lot of legumes will only last 1/2 years so your always reseeding ( big cost to that) ,whereas prg /wc will do 10+ years without at problem
I would say by the end of the year I will have grown a 1/3 more dm which is huge
 
never been 'sure' of organic farming, theory is right, but somehow l cannot relate perfect cabbages, with no insect/bug control. No doubt it can be done, but dedication must be good. I watch 2 neighbours, continually ploughing, either green manure in, or annual crops. And followed by a thin coating of slurry.
And yet, l can see, and do, the regen principles, of rebuilding soil fertility, and structure. Using non inversion tillage, and using best principle cropping. Rather think those principles, are more friendly to the environment, than some organic principles.
There again, my views may be well off the mark.

Where organic farming falls down is when you can't maintain your P and K indices. I know a big organic farm that had this issue years ago. You end up needing twice the area than if you farmed conventionally.
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
Prg and white clover here and this year I’ll hit 10 grazings even though we’re autumn calving
Trouble is with or these legumes it takes them 5/6 months to get growing ,which is no good if you want cows out in jan/feb . So then you’ve got the issue that a lot of legumes will only last 1/2 years so your always reseeding ( big cost to that) ,whereas prg /wc will do 10+ years without at problem
I would say by the end of the year I will have grown a 1/3 more dm which is huge

As long as it rains, there is little to beat a well managed PRG/White Clover ley imo. It is productive, persistent and flexible.

Most of those on here that are dabbling with/advocating other mixes are on farms that dry up in the summer though, which is when PRG is found lacking. Of course, it may be that we all face that problem soon enough if the climate change predictions are right… :nailbiting:
 

Ffermer Bach

Member
Livestock Farmer
never been 'sure' of organic farming, theory is right, but somehow l cannot relate perfect cabbages, with no insect/bug control. No doubt it can be done, but dedication must be good. I watch 2 neighbours, continually ploughing, either green manure in, or annual crops. And followed by a thin coating of slurry.
And yet, l can see, and do, the regen principles, of rebuilding soil fertility, and structure. Using non inversion tillage, and using best principle cropping. Rather think those principles, are more friendly to the environment, than some organic principles.
There again, my views may be well off the mark.
if I was reseeding every 4 years with a plough (and maybe a break crop) that could be organic but I am pretty sure judicious use of roundup and direct drilling would be better for the soil, but not allowed in organic systems.
 

Ffermer Bach

Member
Livestock Farmer
Where organic farming falls down is when you can't maintain your P and K indices. I know a big organic farm that had this issue years ago. You end up needing twice the area than if you farmed conventionally.
some regen farmers say, we have plenty already in the soil, just a question of getting the soil biology right to liberate it with mycorrhizal fungi (not organic principles, there you can apply rock phosphate no derogation and sulphate of potash with a derogation).
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
some regen farmers say, we have plenty already in the soil, just a question of getting the soil biology right to liberate it with mycorrhizal fungi (not organic principles, there you can apply rock phosphate no derogation and sulphate of potash with a derogation).

Do you have be a hippy ‘regen’ farmer to believe that, or am I allowed to as well?

If you get the soil cycling better then you need less lime and less phosphate. Not so much Potash though, if you are constantly removing large quantities as cropping, but certainly less needed.
 

sheepdogtrail

Member
Livestock Farmer
As long as it rains, there is little to beat a well managed PRG/White Clover ley imo. It is productive, persistent and flexible.

Most of those on here that are dabbling with/advocating other mixes are on farms that dry up in the summer though, which is when PRG is found lacking. Of course, it may be that we all face that problem soon enough if the climate change predictions are right… :nailbiting:
I would agree. Irrigation works as well.

Diploids in the PRG family are susceptible to heat and drought. However, they are all tolerate of heat and drought. It is difficult to kill a PRG from lack of water and heat along. It will go dormant. That is the nature of the line. Some lines are better than others in dealing with that in that they prolong the reproductive phase of the plant by as much as three weeks. Tetraploids are the other side of the genetic line of PRG which can tolerate heat and drought much better, extending the grazing season by months in some locations. Tetraploids store about 1/3 more water than Diploids. The result is less DM/bite from a Tetraploid.

After many years of using both in my paddocks I still do not know what the right combination of the two types for me is. Seems each year is a little different. But with 30% Tetraploids and 70% Diploids, along with red / white clovers and pasture herbs, I know that I can have high quality forage year round in my location.
 

Ffermer Bach

Member
Livestock Farmer
Do you have be a hippy ‘regen’ farmer to believe that, or am I allowed to as well?

If you get the soil cycling better then you need less lime and less phosphate. Not so much Potash though, if you are constantly removing large quantities as cropping, but certainly less needed.
I am yet to meet a "hippy" regen farmer! I have met far more "hippy" urban psychotherapists!
 

In the pit

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Pembrokeshire
I would agree. Irrigation works as well.

Diploids in the PRG family are susceptible to heat and drought. However, they are all tolerate of heat and drought. It is difficult to kill a PRG from lack of water and heat along. It will go dormant. That is the nature of the line. Some lines are better than others in dealing with that in that they prolong the reproductive phase of the plant by as much as three weeks. Tetraploids are the other side of the genetic line of PRG which can tolerate heat and drought much better, extending the grazing season by months in some locations. Tetraploids store about 1/3 more water than Diploids. The result is less DM/bite from a Tetraploid.

After many years of using both in my paddocks I still do not know what the right combination of the two types for me is. Seems each year is a little different. But with 30% Tetraploids and 70% Diploids, along with red / white clovers and pasture herbs, I know that I can have high quality forage year round in my location.
In the uk the definition of a drought is no rain and sunshine for a week or two
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
I would agree. Irrigation works as well.

Diploids in the PRG family are susceptible to heat and drought. However, they are all tolerate of heat and drought. It is difficult to kill a PRG from lack of water and heat along. It will go dormant. That is the nature of the line. Some lines are better than others in dealing with that in that they prolong the reproductive phase of the plant by as much as three weeks. Tetraploids are the other side of the genetic line of PRG which can tolerate heat and drought much better, extending the grazing season by months in some locations. Tetraploids store about 1/3 more water than Diploids. The result is less DM/bite from a Tetraploid.

After many years of using both in my paddocks I still do not know what the right combination of the two types for me is. Seems each year is a little different. But with 30% Tetraploids and 70% Diploids, along with red / white clovers and pasture herbs, I know that I can have high quality forage year round in my location.
we face south, and therefore get the full benefit of the sun, also exposed to any drying wind. And we are sandy soils, that very quickly dry out. We have no problem with prg going into a dormant state, the problem is, it doesn't wake up. We have areas, where prg has simply disappeared, within 2 yrs of sowing. And yet, get a good 'growing' year, prg/clover leys cannot really be beaten, its just that we don't seem to get those reliably, and the costs of continually reseeding, or overseeding, outweigh, the production in a good year. Been through the 'there can't be another year like this', bit, and there is. For us, 4 out of the last 5 years, have resulted in seriously short production.

Fully except the next few years, could be benign, its in case they are not, that we have been trying other methods, and crops. The results are pretty obvious, they either produce, or they don't. Currently, we have lots of prg, headed, at 6/7ins high, with other grasses, herbs and clovers, still providing a sensible 'bite'.

The 'bit' l don't quite understand, is we used to have no problem producing good grass, august, could be dry, but otherwise no problems. We had a spring/reservoir system, that would provide enough water, to keep 200+ dairy cows, supplied 9/10 months, of the year, it is virtually dry, the stream that runs through the farm, is now dry, more than running. So, being more proactive, than some, got off our asses, and actively moved to resolve the problem, with no preconceived ideas, and have taken a lot of ridicule by some. And to a point, its working, we are running out of grass now, and feeding hay, to slow rotation down, prg is headed, the other things are still growing slowly, herbs quite quickly. But, autumn calving cows, don't need so much, silage pits are nearly full, red clover leys to cut now, for 2nd cut, clover looks great, companion prg looks sick.
 

Ffermer Bach

Member
Livestock Farmer
we face south, and therefore get the full benefit of the sun, also exposed to any drying wind. And we are sandy soils, that very quickly dry out. We have no problem with prg going into a dormant state, the problem is, it doesn't wake up. We have areas, where prg has simply disappeared, within 2 yrs of sowing. And yet, get a good 'growing' year, prg/clover leys cannot really be beaten, its just that we don't seem to get those reliably, and the costs of continually reseeding, or overseeding, outweigh, the production in a good year. Been through the 'there can't be another year like this', bit, and there is. For us, 4 out of the last 5 years, have resulted in seriously short production.

Fully except the next few years, could be benign, its in case they are not, that we have been trying other methods, and crops. The results are pretty obvious, they either produce, or they don't. Currently, we have lots of prg, headed, at 6/7ins high, with other grasses, herbs and clovers, still providing a sensible 'bite'.

The 'bit' l don't quite understand, is we used to have no problem producing good grass, august, could be dry, but otherwise no problems. We had a spring/reservoir system, that would provide enough water, to keep 200+ dairy cows, supplied 9/10 months, of the year, it is virtually dry, the stream that runs through the farm, is now dry, more than running. So, being more proactive, than some, got off our asses, and actively moved to resolve the problem, with no preconceived ideas, and have taken a lot of ridicule by some. And to a point, its working, we are running out of grass now, and feeding hay, to slow rotation down, prg is headed, the other things are still growing slowly, herbs quite quickly. But, autumn calving cows, don't need so much, silage pits are nearly full, red clover leys to cut now, for 2nd cut, clover looks great, companion prg looks sick.
I have a feeling climate change is partly driven by changes in water cycles, these are driven by land use, but the changed water cycles then affect the land/vegetation cover which feeds back to alter water cycles etc. I wonder if you are alluding to changes in the local water cycles? As a general rule I am pretty anti mass tree planting, but clouds are formed around bacteria plumes that rise from forested areas.
 

In the pit

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Pembrokeshire
we face south, and therefore get the full benefit of the sun, also exposed to any drying wind. And we are sandy soils, that very quickly dry out. We have no problem with prg going into a dormant state, the problem is, it doesn't wake up. We have areas, where prg has simply disappeared, within 2 yrs of sowing. And yet, get a good 'growing' year, prg/clover leys cannot really be beaten, its just that we don't seem to get those reliably, and the costs of continually reseeding, or overseeding, outweigh, the production in a good year. Been through the 'there can't be another year like this', bit, and there is. For us, 4 out of the last 5 years, have resulted in seriously short production.

Fully except the next few years, could be benign, its in case they are not, that we have been trying other methods, and crops. The results are pretty obvious, they either produce, or they don't. Currently, we have lots of prg, headed, at 6/7ins high, with other grasses, herbs and clovers, still providing a sensible 'bite'.

The 'bit' l don't quite understand, is we used to have no problem producing good grass, august, could be dry, but otherwise no problems. We had a spring/reservoir system, that would provide enough water, to keep 200+ dairy cows, supplied 9/10 months, of the year, it is virtually dry, the stream that runs through the farm, is now dry, more than running. So, being more proactive, than some, got off our asses, and actively moved to resolve the problem, with no preconceived ideas, and have taken a lot of ridicule by some. And to a point, its working, we are running out of grass now, and feeding hay, to slow rotation down, prg is headed, the other things are still growing slowly, herbs quite quickly. But, autumn calving cows, don't need so much, silage pits are nearly full, red clover leys to cut now, for 2nd cut, clover looks great, companion prg looks sick.
The bit I don’t get is why your feeding hay/silage but you’ve got fields shut up for silage .
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 79 42.9%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 63 34.2%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 30 16.3%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 6 3.3%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,287
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
Top