1st Experience with Electric Car

renewablejohn · Jun 30, 2022

BenB said:
Been looking at EV options lately, I do a lot of miles, about 30k a year and last month I spent £800-900 on diesel...absolutely crippling. I'm not sure there are any 'rugged' EV options that can deal with some off-roading?

The only thing that puts me off is the battery situation (last time I checked they are non-recyclable?) and the mining of the lithium...

If you want off roading the Subaru with its AWD format will take some beating but with the backlog of customers I doubt whether you could get one until next year. Most Lithium batteries can now be recycled as for mining lithium its normally a by product now of some more expensive ore.

renewablejohn · Jun 30, 2022

ollie989898 said:
Unfortunately not. Rest of the world does though. How many reactors in Ukraine?

Last time I looked 15 reactors at just under 1GW per reactor so quite a good base load.

Lincsman · Jun 30, 2022

TheTallGuy said:
Possibly because coal was selected as the spinning reserve in order to keep the coal stations in a working state rather than gathering dust.

Its been running flat out for months now.

renewablejohn · Jun 30, 2022

Lincsman said:
Its been running flat out for months now.

It really is miniscule in terms of electric power generation.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1086753/Energy_Trends_June_2022.pdf

simmy_bull · Jun 30, 2022

Whilst the price of diesel is crippling at the moment I can’t help but wonder what’s going to happen to the price of electricity when they inevitably get us all changed over.

Lowland1 · Jun 30, 2022

simmy_bull said:
Whilst the price of diesel is crippling at the moment I can’t help but wonder what’s going to happen to the price of electricity when they inevitably get us all changed over.

Fuel is priced to what people will pay. It’s a bit like fertiliser the price will only come down when people reduce their consumption. If electricity demand increases due to more being required for charging cars etc the price will follow demand. Obviously we will be told it’s because of shortages etc but the energy/fuel companies are playing people for fools after two years of covid and they are being aided and abetted by Governments drawing their tax revenues from high prices.

simmy_bull · Jun 30, 2022

Lowland1 said:
Fuel is priced to what people will pay. It’s a bit like fertiliser the price will only come down when people reduce their consumption. If electricity demand increases due to more being required for charging cars etc the price will follow demand. Obviously we will be told it’s because of shortages etc but the energy/fuel companies are playing people for fools after two years of covid and they are being aided and abetted by Governments drawing their tax revenues from high prices.

Couldnt agree more. We’re paying back all the furlough through fuel tax. People were blind if they thought something didn’t need to happen.

Lincsman · Jun 30, 2022

renewablejohn said:
It really is miniscule in terms of electric power generation.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1086753/Energy_Trends_June_2022.pdf

True, similar to hydro electric, and also renewable... just takes longer.

renewablejohn · Jun 30, 2022

Lincsman said:
True, similar to hydro electric, and also renewable... just takes longer.

Whats the point of producing the figures if your not going to read them. Electric from renewables for first quarter of 2022 45.5%. Electric from coal first quarter of 2022 2.9%.

warksfarmer · Jun 30, 2022

Got another car finishing a lease next May but due to lead times I’ve had to look now so I gave elec another go. These are figures straight from the local dealer for 36,000 miles over 3 years.

Elec version:
£829/month + vat
Initial rental upfront £4973 + vat
Road tax £0
Total cost £34,817 + vat
Or £0.96/mile

Diesel version:
£635/month + vat
Initial rental upfront £3809 + vat
Road tax £145
Total cost £26,814 + vat
Or £0.74/mile

Fuel/elec cost:

Elec version - £2500 charger installation (private quote 3-phase). Realistic range taken from the demo vehicle 200 miles.
Nighttime rate fixed for 24 months 11.3p/kwh
80kwh @ £0.113 = £9.04 or £0.04/mile. Total cost over 3 years assuming elec cost stayed at 11.3p/kwh £1,440.

Diesel version - 450 miles (taken off our current vehicle ending its lease - the new one quoted is exactly the same model). @ £1.97/litre is £112 to fill up or £0.25p/mile. Total cost over 3 years assuming diesel price stays the same £8,640.

Overall costs of both options:

Elec £34,817 + £2,500 (charger) + £1,440 = £38,757 or £1.07/mile.

Diesel £26,814 + £8,640 = £35,454 or £0.98/mile.

Servicing not included for both cars.

VAT not included in the lease price because depending on business some vat can be reclaimed. Some vat would be reclaimed off the diesel fuel which would reduce the cost further.

To purchase both vehicles:

Elec version OTR £72,000
Diesel version OTR £48,000

Used values today at 3 years old and approx 36k miles direct from the dealer. These are their own buy back in prices aka auction prices.

Elec £48,000-£52,000 = £22,000 loss (avg)
Diesel £34,000 = £14,000 loss.

Taking the depreciation into account and the partial vat reclaim on diesel fuel the diesel car wins both lease and buy. As said the lease and purchase figures are direct from a dealership.

Netherfield · Jun 30, 2022

Central heating packed, plumber turns up in a VW Transporter, now 8 years old.

His mate has just had a demo one, 130 mile range and only 650kg payload, my man says that's no good to me regularly carry a tonne around in mine, some days doing 200 miles a day and not many domestic customers have a charging point, and even if they did he couldn't imagine saying 'can I charge my van up while I service your heating system'

Clive · Jun 30, 2022

warksfarmer said:
Got another car finishing a lease next May but due to lead times I’ve had to look now so I gave elec another go. These are figures straight from the local dealer for 36,000 miles over 3 years.

Elec version:
£829/month + vat
Initial rental upfront £4973 + vat
Road tax £0
Total cost £34,817 + vat
Or £0.96/mile

Diesel version:
£635/month + vat
Initial rental upfront £3809 + vat
Road tax £145
Total cost £26,814 + vat
Or £0.74/mile

Fuel/elec cost:

Elec version - £2500 charger installation (private quote 3-phase). Realistic range taken from the demo vehicle 200 miles.
Nighttime rate fixed for 24 months 11.3p/kwh
80kwh @ £0.113 = £9.04 or £0.04/mile. Total cost over 3 years assuming elec cost stayed at 11.3p/kwh £1,440.

Diesel version - 450 miles (taken off our current vehicle ending its lease - the new one quoted is exactly the same model). @ £1.97/litre is £112 to fill up or £0.25p/mile. Total cost over 3 years assuming diesel price stays the same £8,640.

Overall costs of both options:

Elec £34,817 + £2,500 (charger) + £1,440 = £38,757 or £1.07/mile.

Diesel £26,814 + £8,640 = £35,454 or £0.98/mile.

Servicing not included for both cars.

VAT not included in the lease price because depending on business some vat can be reclaimed. Some vat would be reclaimed off the diesel fuel which would reduce the cost further.

To purchase both vehicles:

Elec version OTR £72,000
Diesel version OTR £48,000

Used values today at 3 years old and approx 36k miles direct from the dealer. These are their own buy back in prices aka auction prices.

Elec £48,000-£52,000 = £22,000 loss (avg)
Diesel £34,000 = £14,000 loss.

Taking the depreciation into account and the partial vat reclaim on diesel fuel the diesel car wins both lease and buy. As said the lease and purchase figures are direct from a dealership.

now factor in 100 or even 130% capital allowance where applicable or payment of lease bills pre income tax (salary sacrifice) with 0% (now 1%) BIK with vat still reclaimable on same basis as ICE

12k isn’t really big miles - start doing 20k pa and the fuel savings compound up quickly. When I have my new solar running soon my fuel cost for x2 ev's should be zero, just the capital outlay to install it

service cost of a EV is a fraction of ICE and much bigger intervals, to compare you really should cost that as well ?

PS - your charger quote is a rip off, fast (32amp 22kw 3phase) Porsche one was under £1k installed. Very few cars can charge at 22kw AC however so little advantage over a 11kw AC charger at home, not a bad idea to future proof and install 22 however

Lincsman · Jun 30, 2022

renewablejohn said:
Whats the point of producing the figures if your not going to read them. Electric from renewables for first quarter of 2022 45.5%. Electric from coal first quarter of 2022 2.9%.

My comparison with hydro electric was because it is about 2%, similar to coal, And renewables for the rolling year is 27%

___\0/___ · Jun 30, 2022

warksfarmer said:
Got another car finishing a lease next May but due to lead times I’ve had to look now so I gave elec another go. These are figures straight from the local dealer for 36,000 miles over 3 years.

Elec version:
£829/month + vat
Initial rental upfront £4973 + vat
Road tax £0
Total cost £34,817 + vat
Or £0.96/mile

Diesel version:
£635/month + vat
Initial rental upfront £3809 + vat
Road tax £145
Total cost £26,814 + vat
Or £0.74/mile

Fuel/elec cost:

Elec version - £2500 charger installation (private quote 3-phase). Realistic range taken from the demo vehicle 200 miles.
Nighttime rate fixed for 24 months 11.3p/kwh
80kwh @ £0.113 = £9.04 or £0.04/mile. Total cost over 3 years assuming elec cost stayed at 11.3p/kwh £1,440.

Diesel version - 450 miles (taken off our current vehicle ending its lease - the new one quoted is exactly the same model). @ £1.97/litre is £112 to fill up or £0.25p/mile. Total cost over 3 years assuming diesel price stays the same £8,640.

Overall costs of both options:

Elec £34,817 + £2,500 (charger) + £1,440 = £38,757 or £1.07/mile.

Diesel £26,814 + £8,640 = £35,454 or £0.98/mile.

Servicing not included for both cars.

VAT not included in the lease price because depending on business some vat can be reclaimed. Some vat would be reclaimed off the diesel fuel which would reduce the cost further.

To purchase both vehicles:

Elec version OTR £72,000
Diesel version OTR £48,000

Used values today at 3 years old and approx 36k miles direct from the dealer. These are their own buy back in prices aka auction prices.

Elec £48,000-£52,000 = £22,000 loss (avg)
Diesel £34,000 = £14,000 loss.

Taking the depreciation into account and the partial vat reclaim on diesel fuel the diesel car wins both lease and buy. As said the lease and purchase figures are direct from a dealership.

Hyundai ioniq 5 premium metallic (2023 model) 3 year lease

30000 miles
£408 per month
£3679 upfront
£8.69 per month maintenance if required (includes tires, servicing etc)
3 phase 22kw charge just over £1000
(all prices before vat)
If you have free electricity you could save £150(?) per month on fuel plus other benefits that Clive has already mentioned.

If you don't need a big family car and range then it opens up other options.

Lakesdigger · Jun 30, 2022

Clive said:
now factor in 100 or even 130% capital allowance where applicable or payment of lease bills pre income tax (salary sacrifice) with 0% (now 1%) BIK with vat still reclaimable on same basis as ICE

12k isn’t really big miles - start doing 20k pa and the fuel savings compound up quickly

service cost of a EV is a fraction of ICE snd much bigger intervals, to compare you really should cost that as well ?

PS - your charger quote is a rip off, fast (32amp 3phase) Porsche one was under £1k installed

Fair enough for the fuel savings to turn the total ownership cost on its head and make leccy a no brainer you need to be doing higher milage. Trouble is at what point do you then need to be doing a lot of miles daily at which point range will become an issue. Its ok saying stop for a coffee and a battery top up but to plan your route around charging points (possible detours or longer routes) and extra time lost won't suit a lot of people.

Clive · Jun 30, 2022

Lakesdigger said:
Fair enough for the fuel savings to turn the total ownership cost on its head and make leccy a no brainer you need to be doing higher milage. Trouble is at what point do you then need to be doing a lot of miles daily at which point range will become an issue. Its ok saying stop for a coffee and a battery top up but to plan your route around charging points (possible detours or longer routes) and extra time lost won't suit a lot of people.

Our family car is doing 20k pa yet rarely does over 200 miles a day (range is 220-250) - 6 days a week it does a regular 125's so is a perfect fit for that, with cheap rate (soon free solar / battery) overnight home charging, EV isn't for everyone, it has to fit your usual usage case but I would imagine not many people regularly do more than the 200-350miles a day that various EV models can offer ?

The tax benefits are the big attraction though as is free fuel if you have solar at home and almost free serving ........ there is not a lot to service !

Capital cost is the only downside IMO but that does seem to be getting better all the time and cars like Tesla and Taycan have suffered VERY low depreciation so far somewhat offsetting that

I think lease deals look expensive as (understandably) hire companies don't know what hand back value might be

warksfarmer · Jun 30, 2022

Clive said:
now factor in 100 or even 130% capital allowance where applicable or payment of lease bills pre income tax (salary sacrifice) with 0% (now 1%) BIK with vat still reclaimable on same basis as ICE

12k isn’t really big miles - start doing 20k pa and the fuel savings compound up quickly. When I have my new solar running soon my fuel cost for x2 ev's should be zero, just the capital outlay to install it

service cost of a EV is a fraction of ICE and much bigger intervals, to compare you really should cost that as well ?

PS - your charger quote is a rip off, fast (32amp 22kw 3phase) Porsche one was under £1k installed. Very few cars can charge at 22kw AC however so little advantage over a 11kw AC charger at home, not a bad idea to future proof and install 22 however

The charger cost is due to the cable run required to get 3 phase to where I need the charger next to the house.

Aldo having just had a quote for £20,000 to install a battery wall for our solar then even if the elec is off the battery so free the infrastructure isn’t.

Clive · Jun 30, 2022

warksfarmer said:
The charger cost is due to the cable run required to get 3 phase to where I need the charger next to the house.

Aldo having just had a quote for £20,000 to install a battery wall for our solar then even if the elec is off the battery so free the infrastructure isn’t.

agree (and keep saying) capital cost (of cars and infrastructure like solar or batteries) is the only negative. I've never been afraid of spending whatever capital is necessary to get me the lowest operational cost however in all decisions I make, when money is cheap and available its been a good strategy to date

all the rest is a no brainer, I had my doubts before we had one but 2 years in now and no way I would go back to a ICE car for higher milage / family car. One of the best and cheapest to own / run cars I have had

Clive · Jun 30, 2022

looking for other negatives it seems EV's are more expensive to insure - not all body shops and garages are certified to work on them and their complexity means they are easy to write off. Even slow EV's are very fast so maybe also more likely to get crashed ? fast EV's are bonkers fast, quite frankly an advanced driving test should be a condition of driving a Taycan turbo !!

I guess this will adjust and equalise over time howver

warksfarmer · Jun 30, 2022

Clive said:
agree (and keep saying) capital cost (of cars and infrastructure like solar or batteries) is the only negative. I've never been afraid of spending whatever capital is necessary to get me the lowest operational cost however in all decisions I make, when money is cheap and available its been a good strategy to date

all the rest is a no brainer, I had my doubts before we had one but 2 years in now and no way I would go back to a ICE car for higher milage / family car. One of the best and cheapest to own / run cars I have had

They are not cheaper though when you factor in everything. Spending £20,000 just to get batteries to charge an electric car with free elec is stark raving bonkers and why I said no to the installer. Warranty on the batteries doesn’t match the capital cost and when you need the batteries the most I.e. in the winter the panels haven’t generated enough due to the time of year. The whole system is flawed and we need batteries that can harvest during the summer months to then release during the winter months.

1st Experience with Electric Car

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