Fertilising grass at £800 a tonne😳

som farmer · Jul 27, 2022

ffukedfarmer said:
I put in a Timothy, fescue and Cocksfoot ley 2 years ago. This year was the first year that I cut it for hay. No fertilisers and yielded better than a 2 year old prg/ Timothy ley that had fert.

The downside is that the hay is very coarse and I think if I hadn’t of got it in early June it would get old very soon. I put a slice of that hay and a slice of the prg / Timothy hay in front of my mothers horses and they unequivocally prefer the ryegrass.

It would be brilliant to be able to ditch ryegrass in favour of Cocksfoot and fescue but no point in making a making a substandard product.

very pleased someone else shares my view of ryegrasses, they have a place, in a ley, just not the main grass species.
once we move away from r/grass dominant leys, we have to realise we have to adapt management, to them. Some grasses, can become coarse, if left to long, so, don't leave them so long !

this analysis, hay, is from pp, that was cut early june, none of it, has seen fert, or stock, for years, its from some 'free' bits, we keep tidy. Smelt wonderful, so took a sample.
its not rocket fuel, but cattle will love it.
We have some 90% plus pure timothy hay, bought, it had to be 99% timothy, for race horses, so we had the headlands. Smells, and looks fantastic, and is not coarse.
as a student, the farm l was on, grew timothy for seed. The year l was there, they lost the contract, for the threshed timothy hay, it was, to feed elephants. The best way to describe it, think wire brillo pads, tied with wire. We fed some to the dairy, surprisingly, they loved it.

Whatever type of grass sward, you have, to have the best quality feed, you need to cut, or graze, when it is at its 'optimum' stage, weather permitting, which might not be when, you want to do it. Moving away, from prg dominant leys, means we have to change our management.

Vader · Jul 27, 2022

Grassman said:
Very true. Last year I fattened all our lambs straight off grass. No corn. This only happened because they had new leys to go at. The old meadows just don't do that.

Wierd 1...
We some PP on hill side that can not be reseeded so its old old pp.
Cattle always grow well on it.
First time we had sheep in it few years ago, sheep man could not belive how fit sheep were after winter grazing on it.
Guess all grass is different due to weather and whats in the soil make up

jpd · Jul 27, 2022

on light land i find that rain is as good as nitrogen to it
esp in may

JSmith · Jul 27, 2022

neilo said:
Surely better to keep the same number of sheep, but graze other people’s grass?

You mean the @spin cycle method

ollie989898 · Jul 27, 2022

Henarar said:
I have land here and land for baling customers that hasnt seen fert for years, still grows grass.
Strange stuff grass/pasture, it used to grow in the wild you know, fed huge herds that would take days to count aparantly

Of course grass grows out in the wilds, but not at the yields the dairy boys will know well it won't.

Huge herds of herbivore animals used to graze the great grasslands of the world, they followed the rain, and had to eat a range of stuff from scrub to trees to eek out a living. The grasses we have today are a polar opposite of this stuff.

ollie989898 · Jul 27, 2022

som farmer said:
very pleased someone else shares my view of ryegrasses, they have a place, in a ley, just not the main grass species.
once we move away from r/grass dominant leys, we have to realise we have to adapt management, to them. Some grasses, can become coarse, if left to long, so, don't leave them so long !View attachment 1052354this analysis, hay, is from pp, that was cut early june, none of it, has seen fert, or stock, for years, its from some 'free' bits, we keep tidy. Smelt wonderful, so took a sample.
its not rocket fuel, but cattle will love it.
We have some 90% plus pure timothy hay, bought, it had to be 99% timothy, for race horses, so we had the headlands. Smells, and looks fantastic, and is not coarse.
as a student, the farm l was on, grew timothy for seed. The year l was there, they lost the contract, for the threshed timothy hay, it was, to feed elephants. The best way to describe it, think wire brillo pads, tied with wire. We fed some to the dairy, surprisingly, they loved it.

Whatever type of grass sward, you have, to have the best quality feed, you need to cut, or graze, when it is at its 'optimum' stage, weather permitting, which might not be when, you want to do it. Moving away, from prg dominant leys, means we have to change our management.

That is fine and cattle will love it but how much milk or beef yield can it sustain?

Aspiring Peasants · Jul 27, 2022

ollie989898 said:
Of course grass grows out in the wilds, but not at the yields the dairy boys will know well it won't.

Huge herds of herbivore animals used to graze the great grasslands of the world, they followed the rain, and had to eat a range of stuff from scrub to trees to eek out a living. The grasses we have today are a polar opposite of this stuff.

And they were fertilising it as they went along. Different from taking the crop off

som farmer · Jul 27, 2022

Humble Village Farmer said:
If you keep missing the same bit, you will find it stays greener than where you fertilise. Try a small area and see how you go. You should see a difference in one season.

It sounds counter intuitive, but the biology in the soil will synthesise n as part of the natural process. This process is interrupted when you give the n straight to the plant. The plant then stops feeding the microbes which supply n in return for sugars from photosynthesis. That is why you get yellowing when the fertiliser runs out.

It's not what the fertiliser people want you to know.

we have relied on fert, increasingly since ww2, all of us, have been fed that line.

we don't really know much different, to that, it was the 'accepted way', for many. The high price of fert now, has caused people to really think about its use. The simple answer, we don't really know, what will be the effect, of less/no use. Plenty of farmers about, who don't/haven't used any, for years, they don't look bad.

N as fert, feeds leaf growth, rather than root growth, so as soon as a dry spell occurs, r/grass, being shallower rooted, it immediately affects it. On many of the thinner soils, soil structure has gone, or is going. The result is, crops rely on rainfall, and fert, there is little left, in the soil.
This is where the regen principles come into play, they focus on soil condition, and improving it. There can be little argument, that, that has got to be good. Good structure means, more resilience in that soil, it retains more moisture, fertility, and the 'bugs' in the soil, are able to improve that.

Chuck in the 'pollution' effect, of fert, claimed by the 'green brigade', it is firmly in their sights, to curtail/stop use. It doesn't matter, whether that is correct, or not. They believe it, and they have the ear of guv, and they will not change, well, they might, when they are hungry !
So, all of us, will be looking at fert price, and thinking ????????? what happens if, we don't use it. That question, will be answered in the next couple of years.

Humble Village Farmer · Jul 27, 2022

neilo said:
Surely better to keep the same number of sheep, but graze other people’s grass?

Good business but it's not less work is it?

d williams · Jul 27, 2022

topground said:
@Grassman Why not?

Lifts the proteins

Grassman · Jul 27, 2022

topground said:
@Grassman Why not?

In the past I tried clover mix in the haylage fields but it just didn't smell right and was never popular with customers. Why I don't know.

ollie989898 · Jul 27, 2022

Aspiring Peasants said:
And they were fertilising it as they went along. Different from taking the crop off

Bingo. Of course, the grasses involved were taking advantage of this as well. Cattle invariably ate the seed heads as they went and spread the seeds far and wide with it.

som farmer · Jul 27, 2022

ollie989898 said:
That is fine and cattle will love it but how much milk or beef yield can it sustain?

that was unimproved grass, non ferted, no cattle, cut when convenient. And it is a 'good' belly filler, it won't give a lot of production, mixed in a ration, it would be useful.

Hay, properly made, with good grasses, cut at the correct time, is a different matter, we have had hay, at 11% protein, off well managed pp. Haven't got any analysis, of ley grass hay, but, well made, could be a decent product, dried grass nuts, were a high value feed.

Quality of any forage feed, is totally reliant on stage of growth, ( and weather), of the crop, you cannot make a silk purse, from a sows ear, that saying, sums it nicely up.

ollie989898 · Jul 27, 2022

Grassman said:
In the past I tried clover mix in the haylage fields but it just didn't smell right and was never popular with customers. Why I don't know.

Horses hate clover. I know this because I had an equine customer where I had to repeatedly prescribe treatments to remove every last bit of it. In the end cimarron and governor mixed did the trick. The clover arrived with some bought in grass seed they owner had obtained through a friend on the cheap.

Grassman · Jul 27, 2022

som farmer said:
So, all of us, will be looking at fert price, and thinking ????????? what happens if, we don't use it. That question, will be answered in the next couple of years.

Yes going to be very interesting over the next few years.
If fertiliser doesn't drop in price or the price we get for the produce doesn't go up substantially it will be like a revolution in agriculture that our generation hasn't seen.
And let's not forget the subsidy is reducing at dramatic rates just to speed up the revolution

Kiwi Pete · Jul 27, 2022

bobk said:
No question you grow more grass , sometimes more isn't better .

You can grow more grass simply by grazing in a way that increases landscape function.

it doesn't need to involve stoking the grass along, which means more grazing passes and traffic, making for less air (and moisture) in your soil.
Air = mainly nitrogen!

Humble Village Farmer said:
If you keep missing the same bit, you will find it stays greener than where you fertilise. Try a small area and see how you go. You should see a difference in one season.

It sounds counter intuitive, but the biology in the soil will synthesise n as part of the natural process. This process is interrupted when you give the n straight to the plant. The plant then stops feeding the microbes which supply n through natural processes, and that is why you get yellowing when the fertiliser runs out.

It's not what the fertiliser people want you to know.

A farm with decent stocking rates will have more than enough N cycling through the soil, plants, and stock.... it's just when you get messing with the system that the losses compound.

Less effing about with tonnes and tonnes of grass on wheels is a good start

som farmer · Jul 27, 2022

Grassman said:
Yes going to be very interesting over the next few years.
If fertiliser doesn't drop in price or the price we get for the produce doesn't go up substantially it will be like a revolution in agriculture that our generation hasn't seen.
And let's not forget the subsidy is reducing at dramatic rates just to speed up the revolution

we all have to look at how we farm, change is here, now.
we are dairy, everything we do, is big money, that is just how it is. Milk has to be priced, to reflect those high input costs.

There will be, a sustained, concentrated effort, by guv, and retailers, to restrict the rising price, of food, to the consumer, we cannot blame them for that. With inflation etc, the consumer is backed into a corner, with difficult choices to make, anything to make life 'easier' will be a priority of guv. They could swap, environmental subs, back to production subs, but l cant see that happening - yet.

So, we all have to adapt to the 'new' world, of food production. Cheap food production, and increasing 'green' rules, don't mix. But that is exactly what we are being asked to do.
Now, l don't really care about the consumers problems, we have been treated like lepers for years, so my priority, is my family, sod the rest. If that means, reducing inputs, fine, if it leads to higher prices, even better.

But, we all have to realise, things change, and we have to adapt, to those changes, we have no control, over the changes. As farmers, we are well used to changes, and we will adapt, to the 'new' rules, inflicted on us, whether our adaptions, are what the guv, expects, or needs, is an entirely different matter.

Humble Village Farmer · Jul 27, 2022

Grassman said:
Yes going to be very interesting over the next few years.
If fertiliser doesn't drop in price or the price we get for the produce doesn't go up substantially it will be like a revolution in agriculture that our generation hasn't seen.
And let's not forget the subsidy is reducing at dramatic rates just to speed up the revolution

Surely if you're growing for horses, a non food luxury, it's a separate market from the supermarket driven treadmill?

hally · Jul 27, 2022

Not seeing any of the benefits of pp here, they are full of clover but light years behind our reseedable land in performance. If they were possible to reseed I would, but mainly protected under compulsory schemes or rig and furrow etc. Young grass grows 6 weeks earlier in the spring here and similar in the autumn which gives us a far longer season, and there is no way to fatten lambs on pp but on aftermaths it’s not a problem. I know I have a vested interest in young grass and the cost of it is a different arguement but I have never seen a pp compete with young grass on our type of upland farm. Neighbour swears his reseeds fatten lambs faster than an older pasture with ad lib feeder.

som farmer · Jul 27, 2022

hally said:
Not seeing any of the benefits of pp here, they are full of clover but light years behind our reseedable land in performance. If they were possible to reseed I would, but mainly protected under compulsory schemes or rig and furrow etc. Young grass grows 6 weeks earlier in the spring here and similar in the autumn which gives us a far longer season, and there is no way to fatten lambs on pp but on aftermaths it’s not a problem. I know I have a vested interest in young grass and the cost of it is a different arguement but I have never seen a pp compete with young grass on our type of upland farm. Neighbour swears his reseeds fatten lambs faster than an older pasture with ad lib feeder.

pp can be improved for quality, we have improved some, by controlled, very tight grazing, and a on/off, system, cattle grazing a new patch, everyday, with a back fence. Not so practical with sheep, but rotational grazing, improves both quality, and quantity. The difference between set stocked, and rotational, is simple, cattle/sheep, running back over grazed grass, just keep nibbling the 'best' grasses, leaving those they don't like, which then become the dominant part of the sward.

Fertilising grass at £800 a tonne😳

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