Lazy collie

Another theory would be that most dogs that are going to make good dogs are mad keen for work and usually take some holding back. It’s the trying to put too much discipline on them too young which usually ruins them. We’ve a keen little dog here that’s 10 months and turning into a super star. She’s been out round big mobs of sheep from about 5/6 months old and now has her sides, stop, will look back etc and is strong.
So Youv just had your 12 month old collie back from trainers ? So at at a guess he went too the trainers at what 8 months? Too much too soon if you ask me, you can ruin a collie very easily by putting pressure on them that early in life
 

Wood field

Member
Livestock Farmer
So Youv just had your 12 month old collie back from trainers ? So at at a guess he went too the trainers at what 8 months? Too much too soon if you ask me, you can ruin a collie very easily by putting pressure on them that early in life
I just looked up her cards, she is 14 months,
Been at trainer 5 weeks, he said he’s gone as far as he can, she will hold sheep to him but is so laid back she all but falls over.
I went to see the trainer after 3 weeks and though I am no dog trainer, I thought the few old dogged ewes he was using were not lively enough?
Our sheep run ! And the dogs will chase them , his few come to your hand looking for food
I brought one dog home and left the bitch with him after running around his sheep like an idiot and getting the bitch to round them
 

tw15

Member
Location
DORSET
Too young to be asking too much from by the sounds of it . take it steady and go on some training once a week and if you can make a bit of a set up in afield with a few sheep . Every dog is different it could be that he got her to the stage once she had got her to round them up and hold them a few minutes he then put her away now she thinks once she's done that that is it for her .
 

Wood field

Member
Livestock Farmer
Don’t get me wrong I don’t expect her to gather or pen up sheep (yet)
My main reason for posting was her laziness, she is the same when the other dogs play , she will sit and watch
 

Treecreeper

Member
Livestock Farmer
Possibly too much too early in life, dogs like people mature at different ages. Keep her away from stock for a week or so then take her out on her own when fresh straight out of the kennel. Too much repetition can make them stale.
There are times when running with an experienced dog can be good, sometimes if that's the top dog however it can feel dominated.
Its been hot as well so try to avoid the heat especially if rough coated and finally don't expect it to be like your other dogs they all have their own ways, you may need to get used to hers, there's plenty of time yet.
 

Mc115reed

Member
Livestock Farmer
At 14 months old I think I’d be expecting her to be training but certainly not expecting anything more than being able too run a hand full of sheep around, it doesn’t help the collie breed has been ruined IMO they’ve lost there natural instinct in the hunt for a dog that will do as it’s told when it’s told down too the letter and not a single thing more in the persuit of the perfect trials dog… different dogs react differently too pressure Iv one that goes bat sh!t crazy with power if I put pressure on her and another that will f**k off and hide under my truck if I put pressure on her… yours is probably the latter type of dog, set up some hurdles, 5 sheep in the pen, let it round them, keep your mouth shut just let it balance them and stop every now and then let it lie down, then move again.. if he’s not keen get him in the pen let him have some fun with the sheep running them about.. I don’t wanna slag someone off but my guess would be the dog wasn’t the type of dog the trainer is used too, he’s put too much pressure on it, probably gave it a thrashing or 2 and now the dog has lost its confidence that it’s allowed too work the sheep how it’s instincts tell it too… I can’t see how you can send a dog away for training then after 5 weeks send it back saying that’s as much as it can do
 

Wood field

Member
Livestock Farmer
At 14 months old I think I’d be expecting her to be training but certainly not expecting anything more than being able too run a hand full of sheep around, it doesn’t help the collie breed has been ruined IMO they’ve lost there natural instinct in the hunt for a dog that will do as it’s told when it’s told down too the letter and not a single thing more in the persuit of the perfect trials dog… different dogs react differently too pressure Iv one that goes bat sh!t crazy with power if I put pressure on her and another that will f**k off and hide under my truck if I put pressure on her… yours is probably the latter type of dog, set up some hurdles, 5 sheep in the pen, let it round them, keep your mouth shut just let it balance them and stop every now and then let it lie down, then move again.. if he’s not keen get him in the pen let him have some fun with the sheep running them about.. I don’t wanna slag someone off but my guess would be the dog wasn’t the type of dog the trainer is used too, he’s put too much pressure on it, probably gave it a thrashing or 2 and now the dog has lost its confidence that it’s allowed too work the sheep how it’s instincts tell it too… I can’t see how you can send a dog away for training then after 5 weeks send it back saying that’s as much as it can do
I would hope he wouldn’t thrash her but who knows?
both came back a little sad looking and underweight, in fairness to the trainer , our dogs are treated like pets and could well have been sulking at being in a strange place
I’ve certainly had dogs in the past that worked for me but wouldn’t listen to anyone else
 

primmiemoo

Member
Location
Devon
Something I've noticed is how much a dog that's been a complete natural from an early age can skew one's expectations of her good, but ordinary successors. It was brought home this week when I took the current senior collie to round up a field just to get a look at a ewe who's rubbed the place where she had fly strike last month. He did what he did well enough, but his sight could be better, and he missed half the flock at first, and had to be told to look back twice. His predecessor would have rounded up, brought to the corner, and would probably have been able to treat the ewe herself in the time it took just to bring the sheep to me. It doesn't mean the current Dog is a bad worker, just not totally brilliant. The puppy will be somewhere in between, but maybe a later starter than her brilliant predecessor.
 

Wood field

Member
Livestock Farmer
We have just bought a new bitch, she’s from very good lines from a man I know quite well
It was mind blowing how she was when I put her round a field of sheep compared to our older dog
But in the pens and close in he is brilliant!
I guess they all have there strength’s and weaknesses.. I’ve just never seen one as laid back as the bitch pup in the op
 

Dry Rot

Member
Livestock Farmer
At 14 months old I think I’d be expecting her to be training but certainly not expecting anything more than being able too run a hand full of sheep around, it doesn’t help the collie breed has been ruined IMO they’ve lost there natural instinct in the hunt for a dog that will do as it’s told when it’s told down too the letter and not a single thing more in the persuit of the perfect trials dog… different dogs react differently too pressure Iv one that goes bat sh!t crazy with power if I put pressure on her and another that will f**k off and hide under my truck if I put pressure on her… yours is probably the latter type of dog, set up some hurdles, 5 sheep in the pen, let it round them, keep your mouth shut just let it balance them and stop every now and then let it lie down, then move again.. if he’s not keen get him in the pen let him have some fun with the sheep running them about.. I don’t wanna slag someone off but my guess would be the dog wasn’t the type of dog the trainer is used too, he’s put too much pressure on it, probably gave it a thrashing or 2 and now the dog has lost its confidence that it’s allowed too work the sheep how it’s instincts tell it too… I can’t see how you can send a dog away for training then after 5 weeks send it back saying that’s as much as it can do
Pat McGettigans advice to me is pure gold. "Leave her alone and let's see what she does". They can only learn by making mistakes and that's worth thinking about. We put the basics in so we can help them, not to make them work like machines. Those comments aren't directed at anyone in particular but to all dog trainers in general. We are all too used to filling in forms and ticking boxes when we should be asking questions and getting answers!!
 
The other problem is there are a lot of folk jumping on the fashion of breeding and training collies. Umpteen young women with a dozen dogs professing to be experts. As a result there are lots of average to crap dogs about, being bred from etc.

Coupled to that, a lot of farmers are average dog men, who dont know what a good one looks like.

Ive got fairly high standards with dogs and often see folk enthusing about how amazing someone’s dog’s are when they are just bog standard.

I’ve been lucky to have a couple of amazing dogs in my life but also a couple of also rans which haven’t made the grade and have been put in pet homes, they would gather sheep etc but just not work to the standard I want.
 

Wood field

Member
Livestock Farmer
The other problem is there are a lot of folk jumping on the fashion of breeding and training collies. Umpteen young women with a dozen dogs professing to be experts. As a result there are lots of average to crap dogs about, being bred from etc.

Coupled to that, a lot of farmers are average dog men, who dont know what a good one looks like.

Ive got fairly high standards with dogs and often see folk enthusing about how amazing someone’s dog’s are when they are just bog standard.

I’ve been lucky to have a couple of amazing dogs in my life but also a couple of also rans which haven’t made the grade and have been put in pet homes, they would gather sheep etc but just not work to the standard I want.
Do you think the pure “trials “ type dogs are ruining the basic working dog?
The guy we got our “ good” dog from is a very good trials man…. But his dogs are used day to day on farm work
Some are trials champions and carry a premium due to their success. Doesn’t necessarily help them gathering a moor or mountain side though
 
Do you think the pure “trials “ type dogs are ruining the basic working dog?
The guy we got our “ good” dog from is a very good trials man…. But his dogs are used day to day on farm work
Some are trials champions and carry a premium due to their success. Doesn’t necessarily help them gathering a moor or mountain side though
Yes.

End of the day trials used to be for shepherds to come together and show off their work dogs for a bit of fun and so you could see who had what about them to use over a bitch or have pups out of.

Now you get a lot of trials folk who keep and breed trials dogs that only ever see a dozen ewes max and are then bred from etc etc. No push or drive or grit. Obviously they all argue and tell you their dogs work on the farm also.

But then I wouldn’t call gathering 100 ewes from a fenced ten acre field and pushing them through a gate in the corner into a field of fresh grass much in the way of dog work to be honest.

Also amazes me sometimes how many dogs folk use to get a job done. Sometimes I run a few together but to be honest one dog should handle most things and two should pretty much be able to cover it all apart from massive awkward mobs of ewes with lambs at foot or weaned lambs.
 

Wood field

Member
Livestock Farmer
Yes.

End of the day trials used to be for shepherds to come together and show off their work dogs for a bit of fun and so you could see who had what about them to use over a bitch or have pups out of.

Now you get a lot of trials folk who keep and breed trials dogs that only ever see a dozen ewes max and are then bred from etc etc. No push or drive or grit. Obviously they all argue and tell you their dogs work on the farm also.

But then I wouldn’t call gathering 100 ewes from a fenced ten acre field and pushing them through a gate in the corner into a field of fresh grass much in the way of dog work to be honest.

Also amazes me sometimes how many dogs folk use to get a job done. Sometimes I run a few together but to be honest one dog should handle most things and two should pretty much be able to cover it all apart from massive awkward mobs of ewes with lambs at foot or weaned lambs.
Yes I agree, although I’ve four dogs now 😖
One’s a bit of a run away under pressure
The new one bought because of above
And the pups (due to someone owing me a lump of cash)
Generally we manage 600 ewes plus followers with one dog but sometimes need an extra bit of push when penning up etc.
As an aside I know of a lass near by making a name in the junior trials world, she bought a pup from us in lockdown and phoned me 12 months later asking if I was interested in buying it back .
How much I asked £1800 😂😂😂
This was before we got the two young dogs … so I talked it over with the boss and asked to see it run…. Oh yes come over .. no bring it here please
Anyway after 10 mins of her other half bellowing at the dog and it actually putting a ncc ewe through a fence , her other half declared I can’t sell you it , the dogs embarrassed me.
I was polite and said take it home work on its stop and come back in a fortnight… but sorry that’s not an £1800 dog
They are apparently well in with a dog trainer and said, well . @@@@@ @@@@@ said it’s worth £1800
So I just said well he can buy it .
Some are trading on name dropping by all accounts
 

Mc115reed

Member
Livestock Farmer
Yes.

End of the day trials used to be for shepherds to come together and show off their work dogs for a bit of fun and so you could see who had what about them to use over a bitch or have pups out of.

Now you get a lot of trials folk who keep and breed trials dogs that only ever see a dozen ewes max and are then bred from etc etc. No push or drive or grit. Obviously they all argue and tell you their dogs work on the farm also.

But then I wouldn’t call gathering 100 ewes from a fenced ten acre field and pushing them through a gate in the corner into a field of fresh grass much in the way of dog work to be honest.

Also amazes me sometimes how many dogs folk use to get a job done. Sometimes I run a few together but to be honest one dog should handle most things and two should pretty much be able to cover it all apart from massive awkward mobs of ewes with lambs at foot or weaned lambs.
I’d love too see local ag society’s or county shows putting on “for fun trials” which is literally farmers fetch there with dog for a run out and laugh at eachother 😂
 

MRT

Member
Livestock Farmer
put in pet homes, they would gather sheep etc but just not work to the standard I want.
Next time keep me in mind. Only need to pen them and push up the race here, small fields, got a failed trial dog atm, she saves me a lot of running!
 

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