spin cycle
Member
- Location
- north norfolk
£8000-£10000 Sheep?
- Thread starter Benn
- Start date
£70 fat price --800 ewes
£80 fat price ---700 ewes
Assuming the ''benefits'' of indoor lambing counter balance the costs
spin cycle
Member
- Location
- north norfolk
so a shepard needs to look after 2000 ewes before he starts earning for his employer?
spin cycle
Member
- Location
- north norfolk
if you said vc £30/ewe...fixed £15/ewe...so £45/ewe at a lamb sold of 150% .....so thats £30/lamb at a sale price of £60......200 ewes gives 300 lambs gives £9k
I am going to stick my neck out here and present some figures based loosely on real results and educated assumptions.
The following is a hypothetical example of a small upland sheep enterprise. 120 acres of mostly sloping acid grassland (650-1500 feet), 25 acres of which is used for hay/haylage. Closed flock of Texel/Lleyn/Suffolk type ewes. new ram bought every couple of years. Figures calculated based on the Aber Uni Farm Business Survey Wales methodology. Both examples would get the same amount of SFP and this has not been included anywhere.
Example 1:
Number of ewes that lambed 191
Number of lambs reared to POS 328
lambs reared – number per ewe 1.72
Output Totals / per ewe
Store sales £5,159.50 / £27.01 (102*£50.58)
Fat sales £11,866.58 / £62.13 (164*£72.76)
Other sheep sales £5,209.50 / £27.27 (culls)
Wool sales £698.00 / £3.65
Purchases £0.00 / £0.00
total per ewe £120.07
Variable costs / per ewe
Feed costs £3,500.00 / £18.32
Vet cost £1,750.00 /£9.16
Rent £2,000.00 / £10.47
scanning etc £100.00 / £0.52
straw £200.00 / £1.05
sundries £50.00 / £0.26
Other forage £2,500.00 / £13.09
Total per ewe £52.88
Gross margin per ewe £67.19
Gross Profit £12,833.58
Obviously stocking density is very low allowing the farm to easily enter a Glas Tir & GT advanced contract that nets another ca. £6K Taking profit before fixed costs to £18+K
Now imagine the same farm (same land, same climate, same constraints) running approximately twice as many sheep. Making a few assumptions here, but the type of ewe would need to be slightly smaller & less prolific and loses would certainly be marginally higher at lambing. Feed would need to be upped considerably either by buying in more and/or using far more fertiliser. Lambs would need to be gone sooner as stores to allow grazing for ewes into the back end of the year.
Example 2
Number of ewes that lambed 400
Number of lambs reared to POS 520
lambs reared – number per ewe 1.30
Output Totals / per ewe
Store sales £14400 / £30 (360*£40)
Fat sales £7800 / £19.50 (120*£65)
Other sheep sales £3850 / £9.63
Wool sales £1100 / £2.75
Purchases £900/ £-2.25
total per ewe £65.63
Variable costs / per ewe
Feed costs £8000.00 / £20
Vet cost £300 /£7.50
Rent £2,000.00 / £5.00
scanning etc £220.00 / £0.55
straw £400.00 / £1.00
sundries £100.00 / £0.25
Other forage £5000 / £12.50
Total per ewe £46.80
Gross margin per ewe £24.30
Gross profit before fixed costs £9720
In this model there is no possibility to enter a Glas Tir contract due to stocking density and input restrictions that would be needed.
Also regarding fixed costs. The first model has a fair bit of free time so older "classic" tractors can be run and repaired on farm with almost zero depreciation. The second model sees far less free time so new & larger machinery is needed in order to reduce downtime but at hugely increased costs. The first model lets the farmer make a modest living with free time to enjoy off-farm activities or to do a few off farm contracting jobs. The second model sees the farmer work far more for far less and puts more lamb into the market thus helping to depress prices further. I know which model I prefer
Last edited:
- Location
- North Antrim
I don't see replacement costs mentioned and building costs and depreciation also machinery costs and depreciation in those figures. Sorry to be a pain but this is an important thread for sheep farming. ThanksI am going to stick my neck out here and present some figures based loosely on real results and educated assumptions.
The following is a hypothetical example of a small upland sheep enterprise. 120 acres of mostly sloping acid grassland (650-1500 feet), 25 acres of which is used for hay/haylage. Closed flock of Texel/Lleyn/Suffolk type ewes. new ram bought every couple of years. Figures calculated based on the Aber Uni Farm Business Survey Wales methodology. Both examples would get the same amount of SFP and this has not been included anywhere.
Example 1:
Number of ewes that lambed 191
Number of lambs reared to POS 328
lambs reared – number per ewe 1.72
Output Totals / per ewe
Store sales £5,159.50 / £27.01 (102*£50.58)
Fat sales £11,866.58 / £62.13 (164*£72.76)
Other sheep sales £5,209.50 / £27.27 (culls)
Wool sales £698.00 / £3.65
Purchases £0.00 / £0.00
total per ewe £120.07
Variable costs / per ewe
Feed costs £3,500.00 / £18.32
Vet cost £1,750.00 /£9.16
Rent £2,000.00 / £10.47
scanning etc £100.00 / £0.52
straw £200.00 / £1.05
sundries £50.00 / £0.26
Other forage £2,500.00 / £13.09
Total per ewe £52.88
Gross margin per ewe £67.19
Gross Profit £12,833.58
Obviously stocking density is very low allowing the farm to easily enter a Glas Tir & GT advanced contract that nets another ca. £6K Taking profit before fixed costs to £18+K
Now imagine the same farm (same land, same climate, same constraints) running approximately twice as many sheep. Making a few assumptions here, but the type of ewe would need to be slightly smaller & less prolific and loses would certainly be marginally higher at lambing. Feed would need to be upped considerably either by buying in more and/or using far more fertiliser. Lambs would need to be gone sooner as stores to allow grazing for ewes into the back end of the year.
Example 2
Number of ewes that lambed 400
Number of lambs reared to POS 520
lambs reared – number per ewe 1.30
Output Totals / per ewe
Store sales £14400 / £30 (360*£40)
Fat sales £7800 / £19.50 (120*£65)
Other sheep sales £3850 / £9.63
Wool sales £1100 / £2.75
Purchases £900/ £-2.25
total per ewe £65.63
Variable costs / per ewe
Feed costs £8000.00 / £20
Vet cost £300 /£7.50
Rent £2,000.00 / £10.47
scanning etc £220.00 / £0.55
straw £400.00 / £1.00
sundries £100.00 / £0.25
Other forage £5000 / £12.50
Total per ewe £46.80
Gross margin per ewe £18.83
Gross profit before fixed costs £7530
In this model there is no possibility to enter a Glas Tir contract due to stocking density and input restrictions that would be needed.
Also regarding fixed costs. The first model has a fair bit of free time so older "classic" tractors can be run and repaired on farm with almost zero depreciation. The second model sees far less free time so new & larger machinery is needed in order to reduce downtime but at hugely increased costs. The first model lets the farmer make a modest living with free time to enjoy off-farm activities or to do a few off farm contracting jobs. The second model sees the farmer work far more for far less and puts more lamb into the market thus helping to depress prices further. I know which model I prefer
Replacement costs are included indirectly since sales figures only include lambs sold. If you note the total sold lambs is less than lambs raised to point of sale by the equivalent of the number kept as replacements. So about 50 in each example. You could include a figure for the income these lambs would bring and then take off the same amount by "buying them back". It amounts to the same thing.
Fixed costs are not included as they do not include them in the Aber Uni Business survey. I did hint at the relative costs however in my final paragraph, noting that for each system the fixed costs are likely to be considerably higher in the 2nd example. Theoretically the cost of fodder in the variable costs should include machinery costs since the price of fodder should be the same if you make it yourself or buy it in or use a contractor.
Fixed costs are not included as they do not include them in the Aber Uni Business survey. I did hint at the relative costs however in my final paragraph, noting that for each system the fixed costs are likely to be considerably higher in the 2nd example. Theoretically the cost of fodder in the variable costs should include machinery costs since the price of fodder should be the same if you make it yourself or buy it in or use a contractor.
- Location
- Montgomeryshire
I am going to stick my neck out here and present some figures based loosely on real results and educated assumptions.
The following is a hypothetical example of a small upland sheep enterprise. 120 acres of mostly sloping acid grassland (650-1500 feet), 25 acres of which is used for hay/haylage. Closed flock of Texel/Lleyn/Suffolk type ewes. new ram bought every couple of years. Figures calculated based on the Aber Uni Farm Business Survey Wales methodology. Both examples would get the same amount of SFP and this has not been included anywhere.
Example 1:
Number of ewes that lambed 191
Number of lambs reared to POS 328
lambs reared – number per ewe 1.72
Output Totals / per ewe
Store sales £5,159.50 / £27.01 (102*£50.58)
Fat sales £11,866.58 / £62.13 (164*£72.76)
Other sheep sales £5,209.50 / £27.27 (culls)
Wool sales £698.00 / £3.65
Purchases £0.00 / £0.00
total per ewe £120.07
Variable costs / per ewe
Feed costs £3,500.00 / £18.32
Vet cost £1,750.00 /£9.16
Rent £2,000.00 / £10.47
scanning etc £100.00 / £0.52
straw £200.00 / £1.05
sundries £50.00 / £0.26
Other forage £2,500.00 / £13.09
Total per ewe £52.88
Gross margin per ewe £67.19
Gross Profit £12,833.58
Obviously stocking density is very low allowing the farm to easily enter a Glas Tir & GT advanced contract that nets another ca. £6K Taking profit before fixed costs to £18+K
Now imagine the same farm (same land, same climate, same constraints) running approximately twice as many sheep. Making a few assumptions here, but the type of ewe would need to be slightly smaller & less prolific and loses would certainly be marginally higher at lambing. Feed would need to be upped considerably either by buying in more and/or using far more fertiliser. Lambs would need to be gone sooner as stores to allow grazing for ewes into the back end of the year.
Example 2
Number of ewes that lambed 400
Number of lambs reared to POS 520
lambs reared – number per ewe 1.30
Output Totals / per ewe
Store sales £14400 / £30 (360*£40)
Fat sales £7800 / £19.50 (120*£65)
Other sheep sales £3850 / £9.63
Wool sales £1100 / £2.75
Purchases £900/ £-2.25
total per ewe £65.63
Variable costs / per ewe
Feed costs £8000.00 / £20
Vet cost £300 /£7.50
Rent £2,000.00 / £10.47
scanning etc £220.00 / £0.55
straw £400.00 / £1.00
sundries £100.00 / £0.25
Other forage £5000 / £12.50
Total per ewe £46.80
Gross margin per ewe £18.83
Gross profit before fixed costs £7530
In this model there is no possibility to enter a Glas Tir contract due to stocking density and input restrictions that would be needed.
Also regarding fixed costs. The first model has a fair bit of free time so older "classic" tractors can be run and repaired on farm with almost zero depreciation. The second model sees far less free time so new & larger machinery is needed in order to reduce downtime but at hugely increased costs. The first model lets the farmer make a modest living with free time to enjoy off-farm activities or to do a few off farm contracting jobs. The second model sees the farmer work far more for far less and puts more lamb into the market thus helping to depress prices further. I know which model I prefer
Why are the rent costs/ewe the same in both examples? Surely they would be half when twice the number of ewes are carried on the same farm?
Why is the second flock only selling 130%, on land that the first flock can sell 172%? 150% should be easily achievable IMO, especially when you have concentrate costs of £20/ewe.
Even if they those extra 80 lambs (extra 20% on 400 ewes) were all sold as stores, and the rent figure is corrected as above, the GM for the flock is suddenly within a couple of hundred quid of example one.
Stocking rate is still only just a little over 3/ac in example two. There is no reason that wouldn't necessarily qualify for Glastir. My stocking rate is above that, yet I am in Glastir Entry and Advanced, and a chunk of the GE points come from low input PP.
- Location
- North Antrim
I was too lazy to go through figures to work out if the replacements were deducted. To get to the real profit per ewe there is still some costs missing quads, livestock trailers, tractors, fixing them parts labour etc. fencing, fertilizer for grazing ground, reseeding, dogs, drainage. These are all costs incurred to your business. I'm like a dog with a bone.
JD-Kid
Member
- Location
- Akaroa.. New Zealand
totaly agree i can earn more a day with a tree spade than 1/4 of a millon dollars of plant
alot of the numbers on here are miles out of being proped up from outside
things like not paying rent as i own the ground well it's work going rate for being rented same with value invested in the land that money could be working elsewere
our biggest gain alot of years is captal gains due to lift in land price farmings just covering the bills while the investment rises ..
Well spotted on the rent! Just missed that one when copy/pasting. Now edited.
As I said, the 2nd example is based on a somewhat lower intensity system, smaller ewes, purely to give a bit of variation in order to illustrate how the same farm could have quite big differences in GM. Knowing the land as I do I am pretty sure of the carrying capacity of the land without major spending on inputs/drainage/reseeds etc. Agreed GT entry should be possible (worth about £2K) but the valuable GT Advanced options would prove very difficult with twice the numbers.
As I said, the 2nd example is based on a somewhat lower intensity system, smaller ewes, purely to give a bit of variation in order to illustrate how the same farm could have quite big differences in GM. Knowing the land as I do I am pretty sure of the carrying capacity of the land without major spending on inputs/drainage/reseeds etc. Agreed GT entry should be possible (worth about £2K) but the valuable GT Advanced options would prove very difficult with twice the numbers.
beltextexel
Member
- Location
- Scorton, North Yorkshire
You will need 500 - 600 ewes to make £10,000 net profit. I include all rent equivalents and family labour in my costs.
- Location
- North Antrim
We're starting to talk real now.
- Location
- Montgomeryshire
polk_farmer
Member
- Location
- South West (Gods Country)
Just out of interest, how many hrs per week would it work out over a year that is spent on labour if it is averaged out (I know it is far from that in real life?)
spin cycle
Member
- Location
- north norfolk
JD-Kid
Member
- Location
- Akaroa.. New Zealand
it may be higher than that
intresting going off neil's link the hours work out to be about a 30 hour week for the top and the bottom group .. must be all the trips to the vet ,triming feet etc etc on the smaller mob
if it was run the same as the bigger mob be comes a 16 hour week working for a good employer on flexie time etc there is still the chance to work a 30 -40 hour week off farm which would bring in around 14 000
- Location
- Montgomeryshire
It also illustrates that you can run twice as fast to get the same return sometimes.
I wouldn't be concerned with a COP contract personally, as a fair labour rate is included, which is probably a lot higher than what most of us are actually earning at the job currently. I could quite easily argue that my 'expertise' should be costed in at £12-15/hr, but I'm not earning that now.
- Location
- Montgomeryshire
One large estate shepherd once explained to me, that the extensive parkland would cost about £50k/yr to maintain with 2 men and toppers, so as long as the sheep enterprise didn't lose £50k, their jobs were safe....