£8000-£10000 Sheep?

[JD-Kid]

It also illustrates that you can run twice as fast to get the same return sometimes.

I wouldn't be concerned with a COP contract personally, as a fair labour rate is included, which is probably a lot higher than what most of us are actually earning at the job currently. I could quite easily argue that my 'expertise' should be costed in at £12-15/hr, but I'm not earning that now.

could you earn that somewere else ?? bit like costing land at 20 pound an acre where the cropping farmer will pay 100 ... IE is there the job and someone willing to rent
good case in point wifes ex put a manger on one of his places and he went and done consultcey work he earn more doing that than staying at home and running the farm
i look at it same way i can earn more doing foresty work than at home fenceing so i employ a fencer and i go prune trees

 

[CopperBeech]

I am going to stick my neck out here and present some figures based loosely on real results and educated assumptions.

The following is a hypothetical example of a small upland sheep enterprise. 120 acres of mostly sloping acid grassland (650-1500 feet), 25 acres of which is used for hay/haylage. Closed flock of Texel/Lleyn/Suffolk type ewes. new ram bought every couple of years. Figures calculated based on the Aber Uni Farm Business Survey Wales methodology. Both examples would get the same amount of SFP and this has not been included anywhere.

Example 1:
Number of ewes that lambed 191
Number of lambs reared to POS 328
lambs reared – number per ewe 1.72

Output Totals / per ewe

Store sales £5,159.50 / £27.01 (102*£50.58)
Fat sales £11,866.58 / £62.13 (164*£72.76)
Other sheep sales £5,209.50 / £27.27 (culls)
Wool sales £698.00 / £3.65
Purchases £0.00 / £0.00

total per ewe £120.07

Variable costs / per ewe

Feed costs £3,500.00 / £18.32
Vet cost £1,750.00 /£9.16
Rent £2,000.00 / £10.47
scanning etc £100.00 / £0.52
straw £200.00 / £1.05
sundries £50.00 / £0.26
Other forage £2,500.00 / £13.09

Total per ewe £52.88

Gross margin per ewe £67.19

Gross Profit £12,833.58

Obviously stocking density is very low allowing the farm to easily enter a Glas Tir & GT advanced contract that nets another ca. £6K Taking profit before fixed costs to £18+K


Now imagine the same farm (same land, same climate, same constraints) running approximately twice as many sheep. Making a few assumptions here, but the type of ewe would need to be slightly smaller & less prolific and loses would certainly be marginally higher at lambing. Feed would need to be upped considerably either by buying in more and/or using far more fertiliser. Lambs would need to be gone sooner as stores to allow grazing for ewes into the back end of the year.

Example 2
Number of ewes that lambed 400
Number of lambs reared to POS 520
lambs reared – number per ewe 1.30

Output Totals / per ewe

Store sales £14400 / £30 (360*£40)
Fat sales £7800 / £19.50 (120*£65)
Other sheep sales £3850 / £9.63
Wool sales £1100 / £2.75
Purchases £900/ £-2.25

total per ewe £65.63

Variable costs / per ewe

Feed costs £8000.00 / £20
Vet cost £300 /£7.50
Rent £2,000.00 / £5.00
scanning etc £220.00 / £0.55
straw £400.00 / £1.00
sundries £100.00 / £0.25
Other forage £5000 / £12.50

Total per ewe £46.80

Gross margin per ewe £24.30

Gross profit before fixed costs £9720

In this model there is no possibility to enter a Glas Tir contract due to stocking density and input restrictions that would be needed.

Also regarding fixed costs. The first model has a fair bit of free time so older "classic" tractors can be run and repaired on farm with almost zero depreciation. The second model sees far less free time so new & larger machinery is needed in order to reduce downtime but at hugely increased costs. The first model lets the farmer make a modest living with free time to enjoy off-farm activities or to do a few off farm contracting jobs. The second model sees the farmer work far more for far less and puts more lamb into the market thus helping to depress prices further. I know which model I prefer

The thing is. . . . . can you really consider running 200-400 sheep a full time job?

The money may not be fantastic, but really, that number of sheep shouldn't really occupy you 35-40 hours a week, 50 weeks of the year.

So effectively, its not a bad chunk of change, from what is basically a part time job.

 

[MOG]

More to life than working all day every day. I could double my numbers, work twice as hard, but as I have shown I won't necessarily earn any more. And if I worked even harder with more sheep and land and did earn more then I would end up having to pay people to do all the stuff I can currently do myself when not directly working with the sheep. As it is I have time to build my own kit and stuff from scratch, including my house and Land Rover, invest time into conservation projects, do some work on other peoples' land rovers and some welding jobs for a mate, plenty of community stuff, read books, come on the forum, and still have time for hobbies. I have been around plenty long enough and have seen too many people living to work rather than working to live.

 

[Walterp]

With a small flock and low cost's plus very good management and good breeding stock that's doable, so don't be put off but as flocks get bigger the profit per ewe will gradually decrease. Explaining this would take a lot of typing.

A Texel breeder once explained to me that when he started out with 30 ewes he thought 'Wow! This is really profitable. I'd better buy more sheep'.

When he had 200 ewes, he discovered the losses, and the extra time and incidental costs, meant that he made not much more profit than when he had 30.

So he cut back to 100, and upgraded to selling tups.

 

[CopperBeech]

More to life than working all day every day. I could double my numbers, work twice as hard, but as I have shown I won't necessarily earn any more. And if I worked even harder with more sheep and land and did earn more then I would end up having to pay people to do all the stuff I can currently do myself when not directly working with the sheep. As it is I have time to build my own kit and stuff from scratch, including my house and Land Rover, invest time into conservation projects, do some work on other peoples' land rovers and some welding jobs for a mate, plenty of community stuff, read books, come on the forum, and still have time for hobbies. I have been around plenty long enough and have seen too many people living to work rather than working to live.

That is absolutely fine, and great if you are in the position to not have to work.

My point was simply that 200-400 sheep couldn't really be classed as full time employment, and so if someone was earning the best part of ten grand from it. . . . . it's not to be sniffed at!

 

[beltextexel]

I'm not too sure on hours to be honest. The labour in my costs is £30,000 per year spread over 1300 ewes. Only thing I havnt taken into account is I also have 20 sucklers and a few fattening cattle to look after so that £30,000 shouldn't all go to the sheep although they do take up the most time. I think I could easily go to 2000 ewes and my labour would only go up £5000 per year.

I put rent in at either what I pay for our rented land or a fair equivalent on the owned land. Anywhere from £50 - £130 an acre. Also rent a bit for turnips so have included that as well.

 

[reverand]

I'm not too sure on hours to be honest. The labour in my costs is £30,000 per year spread over 1300 ewes. Only thing I havnt taken into account is I also have 20 sucklers and a few fattening cattle to look after so that £30,000 shouldn't all go to the sheep although they do take up the most time. I think I could easily go to 2000 ewes and my labour would only go up £5000 per year.

I put rent in at either what I pay for our rented land or a fair equivalent on the owned land. Anywhere from £50 - £130 an acre. Also rent a bit for turnips so have included that as well.

If you didn't have the sucklers your profit would be £35000

 

[Bones]

Googly Issac cri!ly, sheep farmer from co Tyrone northern Ireland

 

[MOG]

Wow, that is some stocking density. More power to the man. An impressive outfit. Can appreciate the push for carcass quality as it where I am trying to go. But to run that stocking density... wow. with 500 ewes and 200% lambing he has 1500 mouths to feed for a few months from 28ha of grass. It must grow better there than up here is all I can say

 

[Bones]

Wow, that is some stocking density. More power to the man. An impressive outfit. Can appreciate the push for carcass quality as it where I am trying to go. But to run that stocking density... wow. with 500 ewes and 200% lambing he has 1500 mouths to feed for a few months from 28ha of grass. It must grow better there than up here is all I can say

I was at it onced ,high enough looking ground ,but does a lot of reseeding

 

[JD-Kid]

http://www.agrisearch.org/publications/farm-walk-handouts/sheep-farm-walk-at-isaac-crilly-s-jan-14

a lot of feed not sure if where it's from tho maybe brought in ??

 

[MOG]

About 100 tonnes of concentrate bought in annually it seems. Plus all silage and other grub bought in. Makes you question just how many acres he "really" farms. I cannot help but compare this system to some sort of intensive chicken or pig unit, albeit outdoors. Unfortunately, the way things are progressing, it may well represent the future of sheep farming.

 

[neilo]

About 100 tonnes of concentrate bought in annually it seems. Plus all silage and other grub bought in. Makes you question just how many acres he "really" farms. I cannot help but compare this system to some sort of intensive chicken or pig unit, albeit outdoors. Unfortunately, the way things are progressing, it may well represent the future of sheep farming.

If you can buy in feed/silage as cheap as making it, then the system could work. It only needs a year when everything doubles in price because it's short, and you're suddenly in deep doo doo.

I remember there used to be a big dairy herd down by Bristol, all on a tiny holding, which was essentially a big spread of buildings and a loafing paddock. He used to rent maize ground in all over the shop, and had a constant nightmare trying to get rid of slurry.

 

[MOG]

There is no doubt that the system can work (it works for intensive beef, pig and chicken rearing units). However, the system has been "bigged up" by FW and has received huge interest (sheep farmer of the year etc). The headline figures of massive gross margins per hectare, however, don't look quite as good if you include the 30 hectares worth of bought in silage and the 20 hectares of bought in concentrate*. He may not own that ground or farm it himself, but it sure as hell forms an integral part of his system and should be included.

*made up figures based on guesstimates of how much land would be need to grow silage for 500 ewes and 100 tonnes of concentrates. Probably under estimates??

 

[neilo]

There is no doubt that the system can work (it works for intensive beef, pig and chicken rearing units). However, the system has been "bigged up" by FW and has received huge interest (sheep farmer of the year etc). The headline figures of massive gross margins per hectare, however, don't look quite as good if you include the 30 hectares worth of bought in silage and the 20 hectares of bought in concentrate*. He may not own that ground or farm it himself, but it sure as hell forms an integral part of his system and should be included.

*made up figures based on guesstimates of how much land would be need to grow silage for 500 ewes and 100 tonnes of concentrates. Probably under estimates??

Presumably it is included in his costings though, not that I've seen them. His purchased forage and concentrate costs will be very high per ha, but not necessarily per ewe. If it is more economical to buy in stuff (& it's certainly easier), than to have costs of land ownership/rent, then why not?

I'll bet he has a panic on in a dry summer when the grass stops growing and his grazing platform (as the dairy boys would call it) is full to bursting, but I guess they are pretty rare in NI.

 

[JD-Kid]

About 100 tonnes of concentrate bought in annually it seems. Plus all silage and other grub bought in. Makes you question just how many acres he "really" farms. I cannot help but compare this system to some sort of intensive chicken or pig unit, albeit outdoors. Unfortunately, the way things are progressing, it may well represent the future of sheep farming.

so realy feed lotting would he not of been better just buying in the lambs and take out the work loading of ewes maybe lowering risks like high feed prices etc

 

[polk_farmer]

 

[polk_farmer]

All indoor sheep from across the Atlantic!!!

 

[JD-Kid]

All indoor sheep in America

don't let the home viewers from canada read that HAHAHA
there was funding from the govt over there to get sheep farming up and going a while ago may still be in place

 

[polk_farmer]

don't let the home viewers from canada read that HAHAHA
there was funding from the govt over there to get sheep farming up and going a while ago may still be in place

Ha! Edited to be a bit more vague