‘Rewilders’ and farmers lock horns over plan to cull 25,000 deer from Cairngorms National Park

[Jackov Altraids]

they spent £5 million on a capercaillie project, whos money? i can guess? was it theirs to waste? easy to waste other peoples money? just come down south here in essex , The RSPB have so much money that they can buy up farms, farms that were very good productive farms that grew high yields of cereals, were drained at at great cost and effort? Then flood them turn it into a bird place?

There was a report on the radio this morning which said that there was found to be no difference in the bird populations of unprotected areas and protected areas [SSSI, AONB etc].
Their conclusion was that it means needing more protected areas with greater funding.

 

[DRC]

There was a report on the radio this morning which said that there was found to be no difference in the bird populations of unprotected areas and protected areas [SSSI, AONB etc].
Their conclusion was that protected areas needed more protected areas with greater funding.

Story is now on the bbc website, along with a story about impending food crisis .

 

[Pieces_of_Eight]

Elk and caribu might be related but I don't think reindeer are! (Well, not to them, anyway).

There is something in the back of my mind that someone (probably an environmentalist) introduced elk or caribu into red deer (which, I think, IS possible) to increase size for hunting. But it is just a shadow of a memory. Maybe someone was thinking about doing it? Someone on here must know!

Caribou and Reindeer are the same species,

Confusion arises because what Americans call a moose is what Europeans call an Elk, and what Americans call an Elk is what other people call a Wapiti.

Our Red Deer, Roe & Muntjac aren't found in America, and American Mule deer and Whitetails aren't found in the rest of the world. (Apart from a few Whitetails in Finland and Czech R). There are a few Japanese Sika in Virginia & Maryland.

Texas and NZ have just about every type of sheep, goat, deer & pig from everywhere else in the world, and Texas even has feral populations of various African plains game.

Over grazing/browsing by deer of all sizes is a serious problem throughout the UK, with many lowland woodlands bare at ground level which removes habitat for ground nesting birds, rodents, reptiles etc etc.

 

[Dry Rot]

The subject of the Langholm grouse moor and hen harriers came up on the old farming forum. Anyone remember that? There was a bird ringer/RSPB official on that forum. The RSPB had bought the moor which was quite a respectable grouse moor but there was controversy about the hen harriers which were quite scarce and a bit of a novelty at the time. So the debate began.

I don't want to say too much as some of the participants are dead but the RSPB bod was laying down the law and saying what a great job they were doing. I knew the man personally as he had actually passed me fit as a bird ringer for the British Trust for Ornithology! In fact, the numbers of grouse were going down in the RSPB's hands and according to the news the moor ended up a complete disaster with no vermin control or burning. The harriers were fed laboratory rats to take their minds off grouse, they called it ;buffer feeding' I think. No doubt they'll be doing something similar with the wolves and lynx to divert them away from sheep. Re-wilding in miniature. Anyyway, maybe someone on here knows the follow up story? Do they still own the moor and how is it fairing these days? What he didn't realise was that one of the forum members had grazed sheep on Langholm until the RSPB decided they were bad for the environment. I had direct contact with the scientists who did the counts as I supplied the dogs and they were quite frank. Their comment on the proceedings, "You can do what you want with statistics". There was a lot more to it as there were others either on the forum or known to members with inside knowledge.

 

[Pieces_of_Eight]

The subject of the Langholm grouse moor and hen harriers came up on the old farming forum. Anyone remember that? There was a bird ringer/RSPB official on that forum. The RSPB had bought the moor which was quite a respectable grouse moor but there was controversy about the hen harriers which were quite scarce and a bit of a novelty at the time. So the debate began.

Anyyway, maybe someone on here knows the follow up story? Do they still own the moor and how is it fairing these days?

Langholm Moor Demonstration Project - Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust

www.gwct.org.uk

http://www.langholmproject.com/PDF%20downloads/Langholm%20Moor%20Demonstration%20Project%20Final%20Report.pdf

 

[Top Tip.]

I struggle to understand the logic behind a lot of the environmentalists thought processes. They would persecute red deer to extinction but won’t allow foxes to be shot.

 

[egbert]

There’s a move to get Galloway recognised as an NP and this is exactly my fear. It’s sold as being a great PR win for the area but the NP people’s solution to everything is just more tourism and more conservation as if that’s the cure for everything.

The clue’s in the name. Park. A park run by urbanites for urbanites.

All I can see is another layer of ineffective and expensive government authority on top of all the rest determined to tell landowners what they can and can’t do with their own property.

Resist at all costs.
The park here are fast becoming a nightmare...exactly as you say, a park for urbanites, run by urbanites.
The governance used to be carefully compromising toward everyones interests...but we're getting further from that every year now.
The question of my communities human rights are now becoming asked.
We can't elect our representatives, we can't control our own destiny, and our 'worth' is eroded continually.


If it helps....I love D&G, and holiday there every year (well, it's a business trip according to the accounts)
One of the key attractions is a living landscape and community.
It would certainly suffer for being a park.

 

[egbert]

Caribou and Reindeer are the same species,

Confusion arises because what Americans call a moose is what Europeans call an Elk, and what Americans call an Elk is what other people call a Wapiti.

Our Red Deer, Roe & Muntjac aren't found in America, and American Mule deer and Whitetails aren't found in the rest of the world. (Apart from a few Whitetails in Finland and Czech R). There are a few Japanese Sika in Virginia & Maryland.

Texas and NZ have just about every type of sheep, goat, deer & pig from everywhere else in the world, and Texas even has feral populations of various African plains game.

Over grazing/browsing by deer of all sizes is a serious problem throughout the UK, with many lowland woodlands bare at ground level which removes habitat for ground nesting birds, rodents, reptiles etc etc.

Well done...that's takes us- and @Humble Village Farmer - a good way forward.

Caribou are the North American version, and have never - to my knowledge- been domesticated.
Reindeer are Eurasian, and have been, to varying levels, over thousands of years.
I'm minded someone once tried to take reindeer to Alaska to 'farm' instead of wild caribou

What Europeans - Scandi countries esp I think- call elk are much like, but a bit smaller I'm thinking, what the yanks call moose.
Meanwhile, what the yanks call elk are similar but different to our Reds.

Reds here will, if I recall right, interbreed/hybridise with one of our imported 'exotics'...sika I reckon.
They won't however interbreed with that other import Alaskan Sitka, although their fates are very intertwined!

There....clear as mud.

 

[egbert]

I struggle to understand the logic behind a lot of the environmentalists thought processes. They would persecute red deer to extinction but won’t allow foxes to be shot.

You think there's a logic?
You're a kinder man than I

 

[Kwak Rider]

Texas even has feral populations of various African plains game.

That's interesting, I had never heard that before, off hand do you know which species? TBF it's shouldn't really be that surprising with America's interest in "big Game Hunting" that someone would release them into the enviroment.

 

[primmiemoo]

I think this is the article that was mentioned on the BBC ~

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04617-0.epdf?sharing_token=6-hwpmL_rgbh8ClLK3EdINRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0MDEPFeoraO5EgGSAahnbuvg-yD5dQaaCm3hbYpuiRkH_R9TJGPkynXCZOj9WDj8nl0Iv3DvJppS0K_0QJEPaxhfwzV1GIG-VMHdDaVNJrO5nRqaYnCWA1ixdPXnp6cYL_uVLneC11yTvGWRcoYe5uThOH8sg9mBXUARqX-4O08jS1WWj2PxN2LxeGPaklnVVs%3D&tracking_referrer=www.bbc.co.uk

Protected areas have a mixed impact on waterbirds, but management helps - Nature

Using a combined before–after control–impact approach shows that existing studies using either before–after or control–intervention methods incorrectly estimate the effectiveness of protected areas in maintaining waterbird populations.

www.nature.com

 

[unlacedgecko]

That's interesting, I had never heard that before, off hand do you know which species? TBF it's shouldn't really be that surprising with America's interest in "big Game Hunting" that someone would release them into the enviroment.

Almost all. There are game farms in the US where you can hunt plains game.

There was even one which would let you do it over the internet. You controlled a camera linked to a rifle in a baited hide.

 

[Pieces_of_Eight]

That's interesting, I had never heard that before, off hand do you know which species? TBF it's shouldn't really be that surprising with America's interest in "big Game Hunting" that someone would release them into the enviroment.

Escaped Exotics Animals are Changing the Texas Landscape

By breeding African mammals like kudu and nilgai, ranches risk running a massive unregulated wildlife experiment.

pitchstonewaters.com

 

[Swarfmonkey]

There was a report on the radio this morning which said that there was found to be no difference in the bird populations of unprotected areas and protected areas [SSSI, AONB etc].
Their conclusion was that protected areas needed more protected areas with greater funding.

It always seems to come down to "give us more money, even though we're pishing away what we already get ineffectively".

 

[Nithsdale]

Pembrokeshire NP has slowly, but surely, turned into Alton Towers ( but without the entrance fee ), with precedence given to strimming footpaths and silly sign posts over potholes in major roads and refuse collection. There was a recent case in the neighbourhood of a woman complaining of a gate being difficult to open, and a park ranger travelling 20 miles to investigate the gate and take pictures of it.......
Farming quite clearly doesn't fit into the new order.

I think I saw that on Facebook, with a video from the farmer at the gate with the issue...


It was a pedestrian gate within a field gate. Easy to open/use and no problems.

But this is the good bit - there was a 2nd gate hung on the same swinging post which shut across the road, which when open swings round against the field gate.


The dumb fvcker of a woman couldn't understand she had to swing the open gate away from the field gate, then go through the pedestrian/field gate

 

[7610 super q]

I think I saw that on Facebook, with a video from the farmer at the gate with the issue...


It was a pedestrian gate within a field gate. Easy to open/use and no problems.

But this is the good bit - there was a 2nd gate hung on the same swinging post which shut across the road, which when open swings round against the field gate.


The dumb fvcker of a woman couldn't understand she had to swing the open gate away from the field gate, then go through the pedestrian/field gate

That's the one.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1081801165730635

 

[hoff135]

Deer numbers where I am are completely off the scale. We were getting up to 150 in here last year every night. Silage fields destroyed, fences destroyed, forced to buy concentrate to feed ewes to make up for loss of grazing.

There's deer killed on the road every other day, I had 15 in a small field of young lambs the other day and they scattered the sheep everywhere.

 

[ollie989898]

Almost all. There are game farms in the US where you can hunt plains game.

There was even one which would let you do it over the internet. You controlled a camera linked to a rifle in a baited hide.

I can see that turning into an worldwide internet phenomenon- rambler shooting by proxy?

 

[Dry Rot]

I struggle to understand the logic behind a lot of the environmentalists thought processes. They would persecute red deer to extinction but won’t allow foxes to be shot.

One of the excuses for stopping snaring was that they were catching capercailzie. Back in the 1970s both were classed as vermin. You couldn't make it up!

 

[Woolless]

I thought red deer and reindeer were the same species, or have I got mixed up with something else?

There would be a lot of disappointed kids if Santa hitched red deer to his sleigh!