2 pass cultivations

[CAF]

German style cultivations
Just wondering why a 2 pass system of cultivations ( disc, green up, spray off, grub up ground) before drilling seems to be favoured in Northern Europe rather than a single pass with the likes of a topdown, sumo trio etc. Amazone where doing trials that seemed to show no increase in grass weeds.... would the second run bring up more weeds? Just interested to see if anyone is doing this and how it’s working out?
CAF

 

[Flat 10]

German style cultivations
Just wondering why a 2 pass system of cultivations ( disc, green up, spray off, grub up ground) before drilling seems to be favoured in Northern Europe rather than a single pass with the likes of a topdown, sumo trio etc. Amazone where doing trials that seemed to show no increase in grass weeds.... would the second run bring up more weeds? Just interested to see if anyone is doing this and how it’s working out?
CAF

You would expect it to be a BG problem bringing fresh up. That said I do what you describe after beans and it goes ok mostly.

 

[CAF]

You would expect it to be a BG problem bringing fresh up. That said I do what you describe after beans and it goes ok mostly.

Thankfully don’t have BG..... yet! But a sumo trio ( what I am using at the moment) seems to get blamed for a lot of blackgrass problems? I have moved to discing to 2 inches.... and then in with the sumo before the drill. But the trio seem like an overkill, where as a lighter grubbed type machine would do as well or better?

 

[Brisel]

Sometimes referred to as scratch tillage. Seen it practiced but where it was done a bit wetter than ideal the discs smeared a bit underneath & there was a layer of compaction created just below the deepest pass plus wheelings from tractors & trailers. It's a perfectly acceptable way of establishing crops but like all systems, requires the judicious use of a spade to monitor soil structure.

Shallow passes should keep the seed bank in the top couple of inches active but leave the rest. Deeper tillage like the Trio or Topdown would mix seeds throughout the cultivated profile, resulting in a protracted emergence which makes management more tricky and is, in my opinion, the root cause of many current blackgrass problems.

 

[CAF]

Sometimes referred to as scratch tillage. Seen it practiced but where it was done a bit wetter than ideal the discs smeared a bit underneath & there was a layer of compaction created just below the deepest pass plus wheelings from tractors & trailers. It's a perfectly acceptable way of establishing crops but like all systems, requires the judicious use of a spade to monitor soil structure.

Shallow passes should keep the seed bank in the top couple of inches active but leave the rest. Deeper tillage like the Trio or Topdown would mix seeds throughout the cultivated profile, resulting in a protracted emergence which makes management more tricky and is, in my opinion, the root cause of many current blackgrass problems.

This is thing Brisel... would the first pass take out enough of the seeds for the second deeper pass at say 6-7 inches look after any compaction/wheels. Should say it’s on medium to heavy soils so compaction should not go as deep?

 

[Flat 10]

Thankfully don’t have BG..... yet! But a sumo trio ( what I am using at the moment) seems to get blamed for a lot of blackgrass problems? I have moved to discing to 2 inches.... and then in with the sumo before the drill. But the trio seem like an overkill, where as a lighter grubbed type machine would do as well or better?

Happy days. I dream of no BG...

 

[CAF]

Happy days. I dream of no BG...

Ha.... I have nightmares of getting it! Brome a bigger problem here... NE Ireland..... but there is blackgrass moving in to areas not that far away

 

[deleted user 837354]

Ha.... I have nightmares of getting it! Brome a bigger problem here... NE Ireland..... but there is blackgrass moving in to areas not that far away

Keep ploughing.

 

[deleted user 837354]

The weather on the continent is often quite extreme compared to the UK. Hotter and drier at times but also deep cold in winter. Soils are highly variable but some of the continent I have seen the soil looks like it has had the life pounded out of it.

 

[Brisel]

It's the principle of working from the, er, top downwards. Before tillage trains were developed, a pass with discs and a following press were common. After that, a Flatlift type shallow subsoiler pass after the top had hazed off with a packer roller on the back. The subsoiler pass tended not to pull many big clods to the surface. It was a good system for someone with the equipment already there & no desire to buy a high hp tractor and Simba Solo or Vaderstad Topdown to do the job in one go.

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I'm not sure what you mean by "take out enough of the seeds?" The best way to destroy seeds is to get them near the surface and allow them to grow outside a cash crop i.e. what you were originally talking about.

 

[deleted user 837354]

If you have blackgrass, one school of thought says that using a topdown to thoroughly mix say 10+cm of soil will mean BG germinating all winter from varying depths and you will have much less effect from residual herbicides (i.e the expensive ones that generally work best) on any grass weed problems.

Shallow working you get an even germination in theory.

 

[Brisel]

Ha.... I have nightmares of getting it! Brome a bigger problem here... NE Ireland..... but there is blackgrass moving in to areas not that far away

Which brome species? Different types require different management. Read this link and the download document. Anisantha types (soft and sterile) need stale seedbeds. Bromus types (rye, soft and meadow) need to be left on the surface.

 

[CAF]

If you have blackgrass, one school of thought says that using a topdown to thoroughly mix say 10+cm of soil will mean BG germinating all winter from varying depths and you will have much less effect from residual herbicides (i.e the expensive ones that generally work best) on any grass weed problems.

Shallow working you get an even germination in theory.

That’s what I was thinking..... first pass shallow to get grasses to germinate and second pass deeper to deal with soil structure issues. Is a topdown and the likes only mixing those seeds through the profile.

 

[deleted user 837354]

That’s what I was thinking..... first pass shallow to get grasses to germinate and second pass deeper to deal with soil structure issues. Is a topdown and the likes only mixing those seeds through the profile.

If you have a soil structure issue, subsoil it. Loosens without inverting or boiling the soil. Cultivate shallow after that. Roll and allow to chit.

 

[CAF]

Which brome species? Different types require different management. Read this link and the download document. Anisantha types (soft and sterile) need stale seedbeds. Bromus types (rye, soft and meadow) need to be left on the surface.

Sterile brome mainly.... did see great brome just in a small area inline with the drill but didn’t come to anything

 

[deleted user 837354]

Sterile brome mainly.... did see great brome just in a small area inline with the drill but didn’t come to anything

In line with the drill? Do you think it came in your seed?

Had a client who foolishly obtained seed from unconventional sources, it was laden with brome. Net result, land near impossible to farm because of combined brome and BG issues.

 

[CAF]

In line with the drill? Do you think it came in your seed?

Had a client who foolishly obtained seed from unconventional sources, it was laden with brome. Net result, land near impossible to farm because of combined brome and BG issues.

Think so..... sumo’d rape next crop... then graminicide and Astrokerb and did notice since

 

[CAF]

Sorry didn’t notice it since

 

[CAF]

Ollie was only a few plants.... but it was certified seed! Tolerance levels ?

 

[PSQ]

The only German 'farmer' I've heard describing separate disc and tine passes was a presentation by Michael Horsch (Procam Peterborough, July 2015), where he discussed decomposition of different straws and chaff, and the problems we have in Northern Europe with high C:N straw and cold winters. What I took away (maybe not what he meant) was that we need to start the decomposition process earlier by shallow discing stubbles soon after harvest, which extends the period of decomposition prior to soils 'winter shut down' at sub 8 degrees (soil) while getting wetter and more anaerobic.
After a few weeks the following Terrano pass shatters the soil profile without too much mixing, but aerates the soil and improves drainage and pore space/water holding capacity.
The drill then gives a third and final mix of partly decomposed straw into fresh moist soil, job done.