2 pass cultivations

[CAF]

The only German 'farmer' I've heard describing separate disc and tine passes was a presentation by Michael Horsch (Procam Peterborough, July 2015), where he discussed decomposition of different straws and chaff, and the problems we have in Northern Europe with high C:N straw and cold winters. What I took away (maybe not what he meant) was that we need to start the decomposition process earlier by shallow discing stubbles soon after harvest, which extends the period of decomposition prior to soils 'winter shut down' at sub 8 degrees (soil) while getting wetter and more anaerobic.
After a few weeks the following Terrano pass shatters the soil profile without too much mixing, but aerates the soil and improves drainage and pore space/water holding capacity.
The drill then gives a third and final mix of partly decomposed straw into fresh moist soil, job done.

This is the exact system I was thinking about.... and would it work in practice... ie does the Terrano pass bring up much extra weeds ?

 

[Colin]

The only German 'farmer' I've heard describing separate disc and tine passes was a presentation by Michael Horsch (Procam Peterborough, July 2015), where he discussed decomposition of different straws and chaff, and the problems we have in Northern Europe with high C:N straw and cold winters. What I took away (maybe not what he meant) was that we need to start the decomposition process earlier by shallow discing stubbles soon after harvest, which extends the period of decomposition prior to soils 'winter shut down' at sub 8 degrees (soil) while getting wetter and more anaerobic.
After a few weeks the following Terrano pass shatters the soil profile without too much mixing, but aerates the soil and improves drainage and pore space/water holding capacity.
The drill then gives a third and final mix of partly decomposed straw into fresh moist soil, job done.

And abracadabra 3 machines sold!

 

[PSQ]

This is the exact system I was thinking about.... and would it work in practice... ie does the Terrano pass bring up much extra weeds ?

NB - the Terrano is on the narrow 40mm tungsten lower disturbance points, NOT the wider 70mm points with wings.
We do this into and out of OSR and it has the added bonus of decimating the slug population and sorting out rape volunteers. But we do plough the other 2 years in the 4 year rotation, so it's hard to say what the weed effect is. We do have bits of BG, but we hand rogue and use Avadex etc on the GPS mapped areas. It's not a huge problem, and *I think* we're winning.

Rotation is 1st WW (plough), either 2nd WW or SO (50/50) [plough], '3rd wheat or another 1st after oats, (disc/ Terrano) OSR (disc Terrano) back into 1st wheat. We get decent 2nd and 3rd wheat yields, but we have to plough down white stubbles to stop Fusarium foot root and de-nitrification problems; Ive tried min-tilling into 2nd wheat only once, and it was an education.

 

[Colin]

I've got a set of quivigne heavy discs and a press that we use occasionally for carrot straw incorporation. And a lemken karat. They advertise the karat as able to do shallow and deep cultivation with wide and narrow points. Not done a huge amount of that system but if it stays dry and harvest is early we will get a chance this year. Other option is sub soil, although it's more like a chisel plough and shallow cultivation. Then power harrow drill.

 

[CAF]

NB - the Terrano is on the narrow 40mm tungsten lower disturbance points, NOT the wider 70mm points with wings.
We do this into and out of OSR and it has the added bonus of decimating the slug population and sorting out rape volunteers. But we do plough the other 2 years in the 4 year rotation, so it's hard to say what the weed effect is. We do have bits of BG, but we hand rogue and use Avadex etc on the GPS mapped areas. It's not a huge problem, and *I think* we're winning.

Rotation is 1st WW (plough), either 2nd WW or SO (50/50) [plough], '3rd wheat or another 1st after oats, (disc/ Terrano) OSR (disc Terrano) back into 1st wheat. We get decent 2nd and 3rd wheat yields, but we have to plough down white stubbles to stop Fusarium foot root and de-nitrification problems; Ive tried min-tilling into 2nd wheat only once, and it was an education.

Rotation is a bit different here... OSR ( sumo or plough depends on conditions) 1st wheat (disc / sumo) w barley (plough... limited grass weed herbicide) then spring beans or winter oats plough and hopefully back with wheat without ploughing

 

[ollie989898]

The only German 'farmer' I've heard describing separate disc and tine passes was a presentation by Michael Horsch (Procam Peterborough, July 2015), where he discussed decomposition of different straws and chaff, and the problems we have in Northern Europe with high C:N straw and cold winters. What I took away (maybe not what he meant) was that we need to start the decomposition process earlier by shallow discing stubbles soon after harvest, which extends the period of decomposition prior to soils 'winter shut down' at sub 8 degrees (soil) while getting wetter and more anaerobic.
After a few weeks the following Terrano pass shatters the soil profile without too much mixing, but aerates the soil and improves drainage and pore space/water holding capacity.
The drill then gives a third and final mix of partly decomposed straw into fresh moist soil, job done.

I met a wise all-arable farmer who said this back a lot time ago. Discs into the field as soon as combine/straw moving. Roll immediately afterwards to press soil down. He reckoned if it was done right there could often be a 10 week gap between combining and drilling by which point the weeds had normally had a drink and a right party. Would be interesting for the long term min-till or low till or direct drillers to do this and look closely for fungal growth on the trash 3 months afterwards.

 

[ajd132]

I met a wise all-arable farmer who said this back a lot time ago. Discs into the field as soon as combine/straw moving. Roll immediately afterwards to press soil down. He reckoned if it was done right there could often be a 10 week gap between combining and drilling by which point the weeds had normally had a drink and a right party. Would be interesting for the long term min-till or low till or direct drillers to do this and look closely for fungal growth on the trash 3 months afterwards.

Why cultivate, just roll stubble, germinate the surface and zero till drill into it, low disturbance subsoil if for some reason you have caused soil issues which you shouldn’t do with good management like CTF and keeping off it when wet.

 

[ollie989898]

Why cultivate, just roll stubble, germinate the surface and zero till drill into it, low disturbance subsoil if for some reason you have caused soil issues which you shouldn’t do with good management like CTF and keeping off it when wet.

We are going back a bit mind, no-till is coming on in leaps and bounds though.

 

[steveR]

Keep ploughing.

And don't import straw, as bales, or on a baler/combine!!

Arrived here out the back of a combine, happily the Farm manager of the Contract farming lads was VERY on the ball and flailed the lot off in June and stopped it dead. Good man that...

 

[CAF]

Some of the farm that got blackgrass here only plough!

 

[Cowcorn]

Where abouts are you in nw ireland ?? Along the east coast any blackgrass can be traced back to imported mushroom straw or imported seed . Blackgrass is the Arable version of F+ M and should be subject to stringent controls . When it gets established it will be to late . If you have brome issues stick with ploughing a well set plough with a good operator will keep grass weeds under control . Dear today but cheaper in the long run if you can avoid reliance on chemical control .

 

[CAF]

Where abouts are you in nw ireland ?? Along the east coast any blackgrass can be traced back to imported mushroom straw or imported seed . Blackgrass is the Arable version of F+ M and should be subject to stringent controls . When it gets established it will be to late . If you have brome issues stick with ploughing a well set plough with a good operator will keep grass weeds under control . Dear today but cheaper in the long run if you can avoid reliance on chemical control .

About an hour north of Dublin. Ploughing work well, if slow and expensive! but the bit of min till we have done has help soil improve, especially on the heavier ground which carries machinery better

 

[DrWazzock]

My new approach. Small farm. Subsoil where necessary behind the combine. Terradisc, then leave till spring. Spray off, direct drill all spring barley. So blitz it once and feck off and do something else the rest of the time. It’s a sort of mothball anti black grass anti brome cheap and cheerful approach. This ain’t no wheat land at the best of times and I can’t justify a big spend starting in October. Keeping the beet as a hobby and the grass to keep my brother busy with the sheep. Job sorted.

 

[ajd132]

We are going back a bit mind, no-till is coming on in leaps and bounds though.

There an fantastic network of no till/regen ag farmers in the U.K. now

 

[DrWazzock]

Discs and rollers are good for road making.
Don’t fool yourselves. If you have black grass you won’t chit enough before autumn drilling to make a bit of difference. If you have those problems let then chit over winter good and proper and spray off in spring, then drill with minimal disturbance. Stubble turnips are the best cover crop I know. Fatten hoggets over winter, scavenge N then in with spring crops.

 

[ajd132]

Discs and rollers are good for road making.
Don’t fool yourselves. If you have black grass you won’t chit enough before autumn drilling to make a bit of difference. If you have those problems let then chit over winter good and proper and spray off in spring, then drill with minimal disturbance. Stubble turnips are the best cover crop I know. Fatten hoggets over winter, scavenge N then in with spring crops.

Spot on

 

[snarling bee]

I was speaking to a North Welsh farmer who was swearing that BG had been bought in the previous summer by a demo combine. I told him to spray the field off or he would regret it. Not sure whether he did or not, but if he didn't, he would wish he had. Even then how much seed would still be dormant in the soil.

 

[Foxcover]

Trio always does a better job after Carrier a couple of weeks before, not sure of effect on weeds.

 

[Mr Charisma]

Yes a lot of BG problems are layed at trio type cultivation but I think it is slightly unfair because everyone was on crap rotations, now that rotation is the buzz word they are still looking for someone to blame, if you have a good rotation then I think max tillage can have a place, well certainly on our soil type. Yes I have to be very watchful on certain fields but i just keep my fingers crossed

 

[ajd132]

Yes a lot of BG problems are layed at trio type cultivation but I think it is slightly unfair because everyone was on crap rotations, now that rotation is the buzz word they are still looking for someone to blame, if you have a good rotation then I think max tillage can have a place, well certainly on our soil type. Yes I have to be very watchful on certain fields but i just keep my fingers crossed

I agree the crap rotations were more of a problem than any kind of tillage system.