2000 JCB 2CX Streetmaster problem

[Troutman]

The starter we took off was identical to the old one in appearance , I don't think I could try doing that again, it was really hard and took me about 2 days on and off. I had to keep walking away, it was nearly impossible to actually get it out once unbolted, very disappointed when it was no better.

 

[Troutman]

I've still got the old one somewhere , I'll get a photo

 

[Troutman]

Does it have the Perkins 1004 engine?

Yes

 

[Sparkplug]

I have come across the problem you describe on several occasions over the years when I was selling large quantities of used JCB TH around that year of manufacture with that engine - at that time the injection pump timing was always the problem - they would start first time from cold but once you stopped it you had no chance of restarting - by retarding the Injection Pump a few degrees so it was firing a few degrees before TDC rather than at TDC the problem immediately vanished., which on that engine set up was a straightforward job.

 

[Troutman]

OMG that sounds very promising , thanks so much , I'll look into what's involved in doing that to the timing. Very Excited

 

[Troutman]

Do you rotate the whole pump? I think it's a Delphi unit , so does it have slotted mounting holes so it can be slightly adjusted? Which way do i turn it ? Can't wait to try this.

 

[ACEngineering]

I have come across the problem you describe on several occasions over the years when I was selling large quantities of used JCB TH around that year of manufacture with that engine - at that time the injection pump timing was always the problem - they would start first time from cold but once you stopped it you had no chance of restarting - by retarding the Injection Pump a few degrees so it was firing a few degrees before TDC rather than at TDC the problem immediately vanished., which on that engine set up was a straightforward job.

That wont help it crank over faster though which from my understanding is the actual problem?

 

[ACEngineering]

Do you rotate the whole pump? I think it's a Delphi unit , so does it have slotted mounting holes so it can be slightly adjusted? Which way do i turn it ? Can't wait to try this.

given the age of 2000 vintage it will be a 1000 series fastram engine so to adjust the timing you have to remove the water pump.
you are highly likely to snap the bolt off which goes through the pump though the timing case cover and through the timing case in to the block, once you shear that off you will not get it out unless you remove the whole timing case.

Timing will not affect the cranking speed of the engine. only starter motor, connections, battery and hydraulic load is going to do that.

its sounding like you have the lucas style starter, the start i would sell you is a smaller dia so easier to refit, as can use sockets on it were i bet you could only use open ended ring spanners.

 

[Sparkplug]

As @ace says - the quality of the Starter Motor and Battery are the first consideration - I had one of the machines in question on hire from me working in my yard so every time they overheated the battery or burnt out the starter motor I was within earshot of the problem and when the timing was adjusted I never had the problem again, so in that case it was the problem - then I met a local farmer who I had not seen for a year or two who recounted exactly the same problem with a 1004 NT engine from around 2000 in a machine I had sold him who tells the same story - starts great from cold but if you stop it - gives impression Battery is flat or starter motor faulty - if at the time I had the geared type starter motor it may have had the power to overcome the starting problem - I am only speaking from experience - I am not a fully qualified engineer! and yes we did remove the water pump to access the pump bolts and just turned it to adjust the timing.

 

[Lincsman]

That wont help it crank over faster though which from my understanding is the actual problem?

No, the problem is restarting it, it starts fine from a cold start.

 

[Tubbylew]

Timing will not affect the cranking speed of the engine. only starter motor, connections, battery and hydraulic load is going to do that.

Would there be a hydraulic bypass valve actuated by the starter on these machines? Seem to remember fitting one to a poor starting matbro once but it's a long time ago now, just thinking the solenoid could be acting up, or more likely the starter solenoid acting up once it's warmed up.

 

[ACEngineering]

No, the problem is restarting it, it starts fine from a cold start.

i get that, but he implies a cranking speed problem.

 

[ACEngineering]

Would there be a hydraulic bypass valve actuated by the starter on these machines? Seem to remember fitting one to a poor starting matbro once but it's a long time ago now, just thinking the solenoid could be acting up, or more likely the starter solenoid acting up once it's warmed up.

yes it could have that same matbro valve which is why i asked for a serial number to look for it, that dont mean it needs a dump though, matbro did but most of the time just fitting a decent starter and binning that lucas trash will fix it.

 

[The Stig]

I have come across the problem you describe on several occasions over the years when I was selling large quantities of used JCB TH around that year of manufacture with that engine - at that time the injection pump timing was always the problem - they would start first time from cold but once you stopped it you had no chance of restarting - by retarding the Injection Pump a few degrees so it was firing a few degrees before TDC rather than at TDC the problem immediately vanished., which on that engine set up was a straightforward job.

Had exactly the same symptoms on a manitou rough terrain forklift with this engine. Adjusting pump timing cured it.

 

[Troutman]

I'll try and do a short video today just to confirm what's going on. I'm reluctant to change the starter as it's fine when cold , not sure how the timing will affect it later and we're only talking 1-2mins , the engine isn't warm just not stone cold.

 

[ACEngineering]

I'll try and do a short video today just to confirm what's going on. I'm reluctant to change the starter as it's fine when cold , not sure how the timing will affect it later and we're only talking 1-2mins , the engine isn't warm just not stone cold.

Pull the wires off the stop solenoid it should crank easy regardless of what fuel is doing.

I have heard of jcb dealers fiddling with timing on these engines before but I've never seen anything official regarding altering it from factory perkins spec from any manufacturer.

There really isnt any need too. When doing timing you get the pump locked on TDC, then you set engine on TDC no1 personally I do this by dropping a valve on top of no 1 piston then use a DTI gauge on the valve stem to locate accurately TDC as it describes in the perkins manual. Line all the timing Mark's up on gears etc and fit the pump, before tightening the gear on the pump I rotate it gently by hand to remove the back lash out the gear teeth also as described in the perkins manual.

These pump already have an automatic timing advance/retard on them for cold running, under injector pump is a solenoid with a single wire on it that goes to a temp sender above the pump in the timing case.
Cant recall which way its powered but sure they switch around 50 deg c.
These wires often all off imo or the sender terminals break off and the device bolted under the pump also gives problems so I'm thinking all these saying they improved hot starting by altering the timing simply had a fault with this automatic device and someone decide it would be a good idea to alter it manually permanently at the expense of normal running to some degree.

I've had loads of these pumps on and off and only ever set timing as above and described in the manual.

 

[ACEngineering]

Take some pics of engine and starter and get jcb serial no.

You say year 2000 on post title which would be a 1000series as talked about above but then later on you say 2003 which could mean its actually a 1100 series engine so all that timing nonsense above is irrelevant as they have no adjustment anyway!

 

[Troutman]

It's a 2000, I'll get a photo later. Thanks for your input, I really appreciate the time you're putting into this ...everyone that is.

 

[startinghandle]

I would be wary of adjusting timing willy nilly . Although everything points to faulty starter you can't be sure
Could it be low sulphur fuel causing
problem?

 

[ACEngineering]

I would be wary of adjusting timing willy nilly . Although everything points to faulty starter you can't be sure
Could it be low sulphur fuel causing
problem?

I've had timing wrong on these before and they either don't run at all and or one ran but was difficult to start (as in it would spin over just not fire) when it did start would miss a bit it'll warmed up then ran very hot to the point the exhaust got so hot it melted the plastic air cleaner box near it! Never had that happen on anyone's before or since! Fixed the timing on it and it ran fine after with new air cleaner of cause