4 years today

Hindsight

Member
Location
Lincolnshire
You have just highlighted one reason. It's a few kilometres away? Both parties have already been supplying goods and services to the same agreed standards? Both parties have industries with established supply chains working in both directions?

And one of those parties has has already declared future hostile intentions of changing standards and possibly amending taxation and other standards that it could not do while a member of the EU. You do amuse me. As I mentioned before you are wasted on here and doing whatever it is you do. You should be a spokesperson working in PR/lobbying. You may be for all I know. Anyway sure it will all be fine.
 
And one of those parties has has already declared future hostile intentions of changing standards and possibly amending taxation and other standards that it could not do while a member of the EU. You do amuse me. As I mentioned before you are wasted on here and doing whatever it is you do. You should be a spokesperson working in PR/lobbying. You may be for all I know. Anyway sure it will all be fine.

The EU has no jurisdiction on what tax policy the UK has in place. None whatsoever. If the UK wants to import American cars or LNG, Brazilian beef or Thai chicken that is the concern of the UK itself. If the UK wants to forge trade deals with other parties, it can now do so.

The EU is a protectionist bastion who has zero concern for the plight of UK citizens or businesses and it has had a real lesson in democracy as well.
 

Hindsight

Member
Location
Lincolnshire
The EU has no jurisdiction on what tax policy the UK has in place. None whatsoever. If the UK wants to import American cars or LNG, Brazilian beef or Thai chicken that is the concern of the UK itself. If the UK wants to forge trade deals with other parties, it can now do so.

The EU is a protectionist bastion who has zero concern for the plight of UK citizens or businesses and it has had a real lesson in democracy as well.

Whatever.
 

Ashtree

Member
The EU has no jurisdiction on what tax policy the UK has in place. None whatsoever. If the UK wants to import American cars or LNG, Brazilian beef or Thai chicken that is the concern of the UK itself. If the UK wants to forge trade deals with other parties, it can now do so.

The EU is a protectionist bastion who has zero concern for the plight of UK citizens or businesses and it has had a real lesson in democracy as well.

A party (any party) to a deal or trade deal, or in a market (any market), protects itself! What a weird concept? ?
 

Ashtree

Member
Protectionism is the reason countries are willing to join the GATT and WTO. The EU has no clue about free trade, not one scoobies. It's a ridiculous organisation costing billions of Euros and many countries in Europe can simply not afford it.

Deary me! EU is a member of WTO And and all disputes between EU and trading partners, are arbitrated at WTO level.
You will have noted recently, that a certain USA is trying to disrupt and destroy the WTO, so it can use its muscle and scale, to turn markets into a total free for all, where only the big cats in the jungle can eat.
Good luck with that ......
 
Deary me! EU is a member of WTO And and all disputes between EU and trading partners, are arbitrated at WTO level.
You will have noted recently, that a certain USA is trying to disrupt and destroy the WTO, so it can use its muscle and scale, to turn markets into a total free for all, where only the big cats in the jungle can eat.
Good luck with that ......

The US, looking for a free for all? I doubt it. They adopt protectionist policies as well. The WTO has too many signatories, if the US withdrew that is their concern.

The UK has stated it will adopt a free trade policy as broadly as possible.
 

Muck Spreader

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Limousin
The EU has no jurisdiction on what tax policy the UK has in place. None whatsoever. If the UK wants to import American cars or LNG, Brazilian beef or Thai chicken that is the concern of the UK itself. If the UK wants to forge trade deals with other parties, it can now do so.

The EU is a protectionist bastion who has zero concern for the plight of UK citizens or businesses and it has had a real lesson in democracy as well.

Unfortunately, in the real world the UK does have to take serious notice of the demands of any nation it is attempting to do a trade deal with, just one of the many problems facing the UK. And anybody thinking that Cummings won't throw UK food production under the bus in order to get better access to the US Service and Tech sector is just deluding themselves. The result of this will almost certainly be a partial or total blocking of food exports into the EU from the UK.

As for the EU being protectionist, what's wrong with that? If wealthy nations have to pay a bit more for their food, knowing that this extra expense improves food security, safety and welfare as well as producing a sustainable rural infrastructure I am all for it.
 

Ashtree

Member
Unfortunately, in the real world the UK does have to take serious notice of the demands of any nation it is attempting to do a trade deal with, just one of the many problems facing the UK. And anybody thinking that Cummings won't throw UK food production under the bus in order to get better access to the US Service and Tech sector is just deluding themselves. The result of this will almost certainly be a partial or total blocking of food exports into the EU from the UK.

As for the EU being protectionist, what's wrong with that? If wealthy nations have to pay a bit more for their food, knowing that this extra expense improves food security, safety and welfare as well as producing a sustainable rural infrastructure I am all for it.

Of course. Being protectionist of vital sectors and industries should be a core value. Food sector, health sector, vital energy sectors for example, all where EU does indeed provide protection.
UK trade deal with US, will sadly require many of those protections to go for UK farmers and health service consumers.
But hey, if it’s good for financial services and JRM’s fund management business, and the millionaires and billionaires then so be it.
 
Unfortunately, in the real world the UK does have to take serious notice of the demands of any nation it is attempting to do a trade deal with, just one of the many problems facing the UK. And anybody thinking that Cummings won't throw UK food production under the bus in order to get better access to the US Service and Tech sector is just deluding themselves. The result of this will almost certainly be a partial or total blocking of food exports into the EU from the UK.

As for the EU being protectionist, what's wrong with that? If wealthy nations have to pay a bit more for their food, knowing that this extra expense improves food security, safety and welfare as well as producing a sustainable rural infrastructure I am all for it.

Let me get this straight, you believe that a wide-ranging trade policy should be formulated and primarily centred on food products? Low value commodity production, you mean like third world countries are forced to?? Put simply, what is the fudging point of that? Be serious now. And how much tax payer money (and consumer's money) will you waste protecting cottage industries that can't survive in the real world? It's a waste of money and effort. The United Kingdom ceased being a land of agrarian peasants long ago, scant people are employed by the industry, it is a small portion of total GDP and lets talk about tax revenues; after all, tax revenues pay for all these public sector services the public enjoy today. Have a look at this graph, and tell me honestly, which industries would be your primary concerns when it came to formulating trade policy?

Image 1.png
 
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Ashtree

Member
Let me get this straight, you believe that a wide-ranging trade policy should be formulated and primarily centred on food products? Low value commodity production, you mean like third world countries are forced to?? Put simply, what is the fudging point of that? Be serious now. And how much tax payer money (and consumer's money) will you waste protecting cottage industries that can't survive in the real world? It's a waste of money and effort. The United Kingdom ceased being a land of agrarian peasants long ago, scant people are employed by the industry, it is a small portion of total GDP and lets talk about tax revenues; after all, tax revenues pay for all these public sector services the public enjoy today. Have a look at this graph, and tell me honestly, which industries would be your primary concerns when it came to formulating trade policy?

View attachment 890964

Covid has highlighted once and for all, that the wealth of a nation, is the health of a nation.
There are several sectors not least agriculture on your graph, which may not contribute huge tax revenues, but without which top tax generators would fail.
Whilst trade is primarily about economics, it cannot override a nations food, health, education security.

But that’s ok, if the Tory top table, and the Brexit free trade buccaneers want to destroy your agriculture sector. The plebs in tracksuits and afternoon jammies, can mop the chlorinated shyte off the lower shelves before plonking themselves in front of the TV for the next few days.
The rest of the population will just have to pay a lot more for Irish beef and cheese.
 
@ollie989898 you constantly go on about “protectionism” as a bad thing, but when two parties sit down to discuss a deal they are both there to protect their individual interests, be that the UK, US or EU so please explain your (Anti) stance on protecting a countries interests? And whilst we are on, as I’ve pointed out before and you clearly know (but have ignored), you claim the EU has no idea (scooby doo) About free trade yet has a free trade deal between 26 countries and 450 million people alongside bilateral free trading deals with around 50 other countries across the planet - that doesn’t sound like an organisation who have no interest in free trade?
 
@ollie989898 you constantly go on about “protectionism” as a bad thing, but when two parties sit down to discuss a deal they are both there to protect their individual interests, be that the UK, US or EU so please explain your (Anti) stance on protecting a countries interests? And whilst we are on, as I’ve pointed out before and you clearly know (but have ignored), you claim the EU has no idea (scooby doo) About free trade yet has a free trade deal between 26 countries and 450 million people alongside bilateral free trading deals with around 50 other countries across the planet - that doesn’t sound like an organisation who have no interest in free trade?

Yawn, the EU does not do free trade. It is nothing but a protectionist bastion trying to protect it's aviation, car manufacturing and food sectors who couldn't compete for toffee in a global marketplace.

Protectionism doesn't work long term and stifles innovation, whilst costing consumers and tax payers more. It is not really that different from living in the illusion that was the USSR.
 

Muck Spreader

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Limousin
Yawn, the EU does not do free trade. It is nothing but a protectionist bastion trying to protect it's aviation, car manufacturing and food sectors who couldn't compete for toffee in a global marketplace.

Protectionism doesn't work long term and stifles innovation, whilst costing consumers and tax payers more. It is not really that different from living in the illusion that was the USSR.
Let me get this straight, you believe that a wide-ranging trade policy should be formulated and primarily centred on food products? Low value commodity production, you mean like third world countries are forced to?? Put simply, what is the fudging point of that? Be serious now. And how much tax payer money (and consumer's money) will you waste protecting cottage industries that can't survive in the real world? It's a waste of money and effort. The United Kingdom ceased being a land of agrarian peasants long ago, scant people are employed by the industry, it is a small portion of total GDP and lets talk about tax revenues; after all, tax revenues pay for all these public sector services the public enjoy today. Have a look at this graph, and tell me honestly, which industries would be your primary concerns when it came to formulating trade policy?

View attachment 890964

All you are saying is that you agree with me. Agriculture and food production will be sacrificed in a desperate effort to preserve the service sector. Boxed into a corner they have no other option.
 
All you are saying is that you agree with me. Agriculture and food production will be sacrificed in a desperate effort to preserve the service sector. Boxed into a corner they have no other option.

No, I am saying that such a huge and wide-ranging policy will understandably be focusing on a variety of major economic sectors and not wrapped around the axle with concerns for food production. The future of the UK's economic success does not hinge around low value commodity production and it hasn't done so for a very long time.

Where does this 'thrown under a bus' bullcarp stem from exactly? That's pure speculation and imagination, but we know how good many folk here at moaning out the chuff about virtually anything. There is not a man on this forum who can say for certainty that anything imported from anywhere will be competitive or ever make it to a UK shop shelf, but hell, why stop the habit of a lifetime when it comes to a good old fashioned whinge?

Oh look, even retailers aren't that enamoured with imported product, well done Mr Waitrose for an easy marketing coup:

 

bobk

Member
Location
stafford
No, I am saying that such a huge and wide-ranging policy will understandably be focusing on a variety of major economic sectors and not wrapped around the axle with concerns for food production. The future of the UK's economic success does not hinge around low value commodity production and it hasn't done so for a very long time.

Where does this 'thrown under a bus' bullcarp stem from exactly? That's pure speculation and imagination, but we know how good many folk here at moaning out the chuff about virtually anything. There is not a man on this forum who can say for certainty that anything imported from anywhere will be competitive or ever make it to a UK shop shelf, but hell, why stop the habit of a lifetime when it comes to a good old fashioned whinge?

Oh look, even retailers aren't that enamoured with imported product, well done Mr Waitrose for an easy marketing coup:

Clorinated chicken hasn't helped the Yanks covid crisis ,
 

Muck Spreader

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Limousin
No, I am saying that such a huge and wide-ranging policy will understandably be focusing on a variety of major economic sectors and not wrapped around the axle with concerns for food production. The future of the UK's economic success does not hinge around low value commodity production and it hasn't done so for a very long time.

Where does this 'thrown under a bus' bullcarp stem from exactly? That's pure speculation and imagination, but we know how good many folk here at moaning out the chuff about virtually anything. There is not a man on this forum who can say for certainty that anything imported from anywhere will be competitive or ever make it to a UK shop shelf, but hell, why stop the habit of a lifetime when it comes to a good old fashioned whinge?

Oh look, even retailers aren't that enamoured with imported product, well done Mr Waitrose for an easy marketing coup:

Quite simply the US and now Australia have stated that major access to the UK food market is a prerequisite to any trade deal. What future impact that will have is currently anyone's guess. But don't kid yourself into believing this is a game of cricket, if the US is serious about dominating certain sectors of the UK markets it will, by fair means or fowl. However, I think the damage to the home market could be as great simply by all the talk of hormones, chlorine etc just putting people off eating meat or dairy produce.
 
Quite simply the US and now Australia have stated that major access to the UK food market is a prerequisite to any trade deal. What future impact that will have is currently anyone's guess. But don't kid yourself into believing this is a game of cricket, if the US is serious about dominating certain sectors of the UK markets it will, by fair means or fowl. However, I think the damage to the home market could be as great simply by all the talk of hormones, chlorine etc just putting people off eating meat or dairy produce.

The US can't dominate anything. They have tried for years but can't even with Trump at the helm he can't create any kind of functional policy that asserts and secures American dominance of any industry really. Americans are competitors, simple as that and the same as anyone else. You think American cars aren't dominant in Europe merely because of the tariffs against them? Of course not. The average American car won't sell in the UK because they are too thirsty or too big or they can't even be bothered to make them in right hand drive and try to get them imported into Europe. The same is true of many European cars in America. They aren't grunty enough or they are too complex and unreliable.

The same will be true of the food markets. How well do you think an American steak is going to go down in the UK? All the steaks you see in the UK supermarket have the fat trimmed off, they are little anaemic looking things, deliberately cut to a certain thickness and with zip all fat in them. Bacon and pork chops are exactly the same. The average American steak I've seen in the US would barely fit on a typical British dinner plate, is over an inch thick and nearly has a side dish of fat to go with it. Of course, for many on TFF that product would suit us down to the ground, but the housewife in Tesco confronted with that thing? It won't sell and it strikes me as great confidence in their product that Americans want the country of origin labelling removed? Wtf? Are they ashamed of the fact they produced it?

I'm not even convinced American beef is significantly cheaper than Irish or domestically produced stuff. The UK already has the option of importing beef from all over the world nearly, how much Thai chicken do you see on a shop shelf? Polish pork? Namibian beef? Maybe in some discounter store but I've never seen it.
 

Ashtree

Member
@ollie989898 , I don’t really know where you are coming from. You clearly are of the view that EU is a protection “racket”, and as you said a few posts back, US is also protectionist. Now if EU and USA are protectionist, what do you think China are? Impossibly protectionist!!
Now let’s take Japan? Wow, there’s protection in armour playing.
So all that being given, what’s the UK plan of attack. Free trade ...... up against most of the economic power blocks, all hell bent on protecting themselves.
If I was on the UK side, I’d be looking at my cards and realising that the deck has been fixed by the house .......
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

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  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 7 3.7%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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