A question for Brexit hating Guardian readers or any other Remainers

[More to life]

For Germany ? Yes.

Everyone else just wanted to be better, probably keep thier culture and have a bit more money.

The fact is the EU is a highly political organisation, when it should just be economic co-operation.

The thing is I agree with all of your recent posts unfortunately they are all made in hindsight and don't address the situation today. This is probably where we differ but there are plenty of grey areas within the debate.

 

[RobFZS]

The EU army is lolz, the scroungers in the Eu don't want to stump up their full allocation for Nato funding, so they think pooling their resources will make it better, they'll just have a sh!t underfunded army that will crumble whenever anything big happens, this is why Putin continues to carry on as he does.

I notice Ashtree's bizarre anti English sentiment stretches to this also.

 

[wasted years]

The UK & USA army are ultimately controlled by the electorate as Blair & Bush found out.

Who is going to stop nutters with an EU army ?

No thanks, I don't want another European dicatorship.

Did either Bush or Blair lose an election?
Not to the best of my recollection,Bush served his 2 terms and Blair stood down.

 

[wanton dwarf]

The thing is I agree with all of your recent posts unfortunately they are all made in hindsight and don't address the situation today. This is probably where we differ but there are plenty of grey areas within the debate.

The EU is a massive political power block dominated by German & French interests.

It's not a problem that can be solved, it'll either work or it won't. For Southern Europe it's bad, I guess for Greece it's horrific - but I don't live there so it's only a guess for me.

The majority of people have decided it won't work for the UK .. and I think some Remainers are living in some kind of weird world where they either ignore or don't observe the facts.

 

[wasted years]

The EU is a massive political power block dominated by German & French interests.

It's not a problem that can be solved, it'll either work or it won't. For Southern Europe it's bad, I guess for Greece it's horrific - but I don't live there so it's only a guess for me.

The majority of people have decided it won't work for the UK .. and I think some Remainers are living in some kind of weird world where they either ignore or don't observe the facts.

When you say it won't work, what do you mean?
We have full employment and a standard of living the vast majority of the world will never know.
All while part of the EU, where has it gone wrong?

 

[wanton dwarf]

Did either Bush or Blair lose an election?
Not to the best of my recollection,Bush served his 2 terms and Blair stood down.

Blair was forced out, if he had stood the Labour party would have been wiped off the political map IMHO.

Bush I'm not sure but the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan took their tolls .. again I don't know enough about USA politics know the facts. I think Bush's antics gave a greater majority to Obama.

 

[More to life]

The EU is a massive political power block dominated by German & French interests.

It's not a problem that can be solved, it'll either work or it won't. For Southern Europe it's bad, I guess for Greece it's horrific - but I don't live there so it's only a guess for me.

The majority of people have decided it won't work for the UK .. and I think some Remainers are living in some kind of weird world where they either ignore or don't observe the facts.

It was really quite close and as yet no deal has been done or walked away from.

 

[ollie989898]

I live in a rural area increasingly populated by metropolitan (usually London) escapees. They are typically Guardian reading lefties who are generally fun, interesting, intelligent, generous and open minded... until they ask you about Brexit. Their surprise at my positive reply produces a spectrum of responses, from ‘the polite’ - a sage like nod of the head and a quick change of subject to the ‘full monty’ look of disgust at the obviously ignorant, homophobic, racist and misogynistic yokel in front of them. I’ve even got friends who won’t admit to voting leave in front of them for fear of becoming a social outcast.

Anyhow, after 2 years of usually friendly pub based argument, I still haven’t heard a convincing argument against Brexit. The usual points made are;

• We’re a small insignificant island off NW Europe - um, no we are not. 5th or 6th biggest economy, London financial markets, significant NATO member etc....
• You will need a visa to go to France, it will stop people travelling between the UK and Europe - nonsense.
• Britain is becoming a closed insular society discriminating against foreigners - well no, the EU discriminates against non Europeans, historically we’ve been a relatively open society.
• Who will look after our old people, clean, etc.. when we’ve sent all the ‘saintly’ Central Europeans home - no one’s being forced home, the’re here because they can earn more, not because they have a special desire to work in an old people’s home in Slough and anyway who’s looking after their old people?
• I want my kids to be able to go to university in Germany - I want my kids to study in China or Peru, but I’m sure your kids will still be able to study in Dortmund. This won’t change.
• We won’t be able to work or live in Europe - well we managed perfectly well to do this before we had open borders and the single market. It may mean slightly more paperwork.
• The EU has prevented inter-European war - welI yes, I agree that France and Germany should be joined together, but look at Ukraine. An expansionist EU is partly responsible for the current conflict, this does not mean I’m a pro Putin sympathiser. I’m just aware that Russia was never going to let its only warm water naval port fall under EU control.
• The UK economy will be devastated. It hasn’t been has it, I’m sure there will problems to be overcome and ultimately there will winners and losers. We’ve managed pretty well historically. A deal will be bodged up, because there is too much to lose on both sides.
• The Uk is just as un-democratic as the EU. There’s plenty of things wrong with democracy in the UK, but I think it’s fair to call the UK government legitimate. I would question the legitimacy of the EU: low voter turnout, of those who do vote a significant number are anti EU, limited press coverage of the EU institutions, and most importantly I’ve no idea who my MEPs are or what they do or what they stand for. Finally there is the EU executive and legislative, I still don’t quite understand how it works, no one I know does. They seem quite happy to abandon the rule of law (bank bale outs), alter and ignore referendums (Ireland, France, Netherlands etc..) and impose unelected governments (Italy).
• Fight for change within the EU. We’ve been fighting for change since ‘73, not very successfully. We seem to be a square that doesn’t fit in their circle.
• The status quo is safer. What status quo? Increased integration, reduced democracy, and most worryingly - an EU army controlled by an illegitimate, secretive executive.
• Environmental protection and Health & Safety laws will be watered down. Uk H & S laws have historically always been relatively strong compared to European states. Yes, we have been lagging behind some countries in environmental protection but it’s up to the UK electorate to now. Moaning about this is like an adult asking their parents to make decisions for them.
• EU spending. This one drives me to despair - it’s simple maths. Yes, the EU funds projects here, which will stop, BUT for every £1 they spend we will have given them £2. We can do the same and keep the extra money.

• And finally.... Churchill was a pro European - yes he was, but for God’s sake read the whole speech.

I voted leave because I believe the EU to be a expansionist, power hungry, insecure, and arguably illegitimate government with scant regard for the rule of law.

Anyone with even a passing interest in history should know that this is generally a bad thing and always ends in tears. We have been unable to change the EU, so we should leave, but I sincerely hope that the shock of a successful Brexit forces the EU to change for the better. I’m proud that we are doing this and confident of a better future for us and the EU.

So apologies for the long winded rant, but please could a British resident who voted leave tell my why I’m wrong and all my Guardian reading neighbours are right.

Good man. Ill buy ye a pint on the back of that.

 

[wanton dwarf]

When you say it won't work, what do you mean?
We have full employment and a standard of living the vast majority of the world will never know.
All while part of the EU, where has it gone wrong?

The Franco German political alliance will either work or it won't.

Where has it gone wrong ? What about all the jobs & people's lives destroyed because of numbers on bits of paper ?

It's no mistake that London is rich and the regions are poor.

 

[RobFZS]

When you say it won't work, what do you mean?
We have full employment and a standard of living the vast majority of the world will never know.
All while part of the EU, where has it gone wrong?

Only because we've been part of the EEA agreement

 

[wanton dwarf]

It was really quite close and as yet no deal has been done or walked away from.

The chance to vote against the referndum came in the general election.

The Liberal Democrats were the only party representing Remain .. everyone else just rubber stamped Brexit .. the Liberal Democrats lost votes and Nick Clegg lost his seat.

 

[wanton dwarf]

When you say it won't work, what do you mean?
We have full employment and a standard of living the vast majority of the world will never know.
All while part of the EU, where has it gone wrong?

I doubt we have full employment, I think you'd find a lot of people are just wiped off that number. In fact it's "People not in employment who have not been seeking work within the last 4 weeks and/or are unable to start work within the next 2 weeks."

I think 8 million people are claissified as economically inactive. And it's not pensioners because it's upto 64.

LOL, the figure says it's 8,773 here .. I'll keep looking for a bit
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentan...inwork/economicinactivity/timeseries/lf2m/lms

Ah perhaps I am right I think the scale is 1000s.

 

[Ashtree]

How's about getting the Irish Navy to stop being taxis for Human Traffickers ?

It’s the decent, humanitarian thing to do.
Your lot do it too, to be fair.
Do you have a problem with your lot doing it, or do you just reserve your criticism for Paddy doing the decent thing?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5229705/amp/Navy-rescued-18-000-migrants-Med.html

 

[arcobob]

I don't need to I'm not in agreement with either but closer union within the euro group is the only way to make the euro sustainable long term. I consider the European project to have many flaws but on balance I believe fixing them or at least trying to from the inside is preferable from being a rule taker as we will inevitably be post Brexit.

No UK politician since Thatcher has ever changed anything in the EU. The last one who tried was Cameron and he had the threat of a referendum to add weight but they mocked him and sent him away with nothing. This added fuel to the Brexit fire and left Cameron without a job. The juggernaut is too big to steer with a little poke from us so forget it.

 

[arcobob]

It’s the decent, humanitarian thing to do.
Your lot do it too, to be fair.
Do you have a problem with your lot doing it, or do you just reserve your criticism for Paddy doing the decent thing?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5229705/amp/Navy-rescued-18-000-migrants-Med.html

If Paddy took them to Ireland I may have some sympathy . We are only sticking plasters and the traffickers should be destroyed.

 

[wanton dwarf]

It’s the decent, humanitarian thing to do.
Your lot do it too, to be fair.
Do you have a problem with your lot doing it, or do you just reserve your criticism for Paddy doing the decent thing?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5229705/amp/Navy-rescued-18-000-migrants-Med.html

Yeah phoning human traffickers a mile off the coast of Africa and ferrying customers 200 miles to Italy.

How's about they are ferried to Ireland instead ? It's the humanitarian thing to do.

Oh make no mistake I don't think the UK Navy should be doing anything but imprisoning & killing human traffickers.

 

[RobFZS]

No UK politician since Thatcher has ever changed anything in the EU. The last one who tried was Cameron and he had the threat of a referendum to add weight but they mocked him and sent him away with nothing. This added fuel to the Brexit fire and left Cameron without a job. The juggernaut is too big to steer with a little poke from us so forget it.

Reform from within usually means more Europe. yet to talk to anyone that suggests less

 

[jendan]

The UK & USA army are ultimately controlled by the electorate as Blair & Bush found out.

Who is going to stop nutters with an EU army ?

No thanks, I don't want another European dicatorship.

Bush did his maximum 2 terms,and Blair won 3 elections,the last one after the Iraq war!

 

[wanton dwarf]

Bush did his maximum 2 terms,and Blair won 3 elections,the last one after the Iraq war!

Did Blair win after the dodgy dossier was outed ? Shame on us if we voted that scumbag in.

 

[Danllan]

No UK politician since Thatcher has ever changed anything in the EU. The last one who tried was Cameron and he had the threat of a referendum to add weight but they mocked him and sent him away with nothing. This added fuel to the Brexit fire and left Cameron without a job. The juggernaut is too big to steer with a little poke from us so forget it.

It is hard to credit that Cameron really tried to get anything or really thought that he did.

Yeah phoning human traffickers a mile off the coast of Africa and ferrying them to 200 miles Italy.

How's about they are ferried to Ireland instead ? It's the humanitarian thing to do.

With regard to such matters, Ireland is in the convenient position that other very small countries and opposition parties also occupy, of being on the periphery and therefore safely able to moralise and carp while shrouded in a protective cloak of irrelevance. They can't do much and won't have to prove themselves, so they go on and on about what 'should' be done, safe in the knowledge that they will not be called upon to do it.