A question for Brexit hating Guardian readers or any other Remainers

RobFZS

Member
In the UK Parliament is sovereign not the people, so the result of the referendum is purely advisory and this should have been spelled out clearly throughout the campaign. The elected government could have then chosen to ignore it or place certain caveats on the result if they felt it would not be in the best interests of the country, plus it would have been a strong negotiating tool with Brussels. However, they chose not to and we are now leaving in some woolly form or another that could well see us with many of the disadvantages of the EU and fewer of the advantages.
The parliament voted for the referendum....
 

Muck Spreader

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Limousin
Nice for you to sit sunning yourself in France while the resulting riots raged in the UK. You are a theorist with no practical understanding of how and why this referendum took place. You are and will continue to be a bad loser to boot .

This is not about childish things like winning or losing it is about the future of the United Kingdom and it's people. The referendum is done with but there is still a lot to play for. I do find the innocence of the Brexiteers quite unnerving at times and somewhat reminiscent of the British public on the eve of WW1. Just a case of nip over and sort these foreign chappies out and it will all be over by Christmas. Brexit will be a millstone for the people to carry for years to come, but how big a one only time will tell.
 

rob1

Member
Location
wiltshire
This is not about childish things like winning or losing it is about the future of the United Kingdom and it's people. The referendum is done with but there is still a lot to play for. I do find the innocence of the Brexiteers quite unnerving at times and somewhat reminiscent of the British public on the eve of WW1. Just a case of nip over and sort these foreign chappies out and it will all be over by Christmas. Brexit will be a millstone for the people to carry for years to come, but how big a one only time will tell.
We have been carrying it for 40 yrs now
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
What I find disturbing is that many seem to have a blind faith in Brexit come what may.

At what point do people consider that independence and sovereignty is no longer worth the economic damage that we will sustain and the opportunities presented to enemies by the fragmentation of Western Europe?

Life for me is a learning process. When learning is replaced by dogma we are in dangerous territory.

I predict significant damage to both sides in the negotiations. There will be no " winners" apart from V Putin maybe.
 

RobFZS

Member
What I find disturbing is that many seem to have a blind faith in Brexit come what may.

At what point do people consider that independence and sovereignty is no longer worth the economic damage that we will sustain and the opportunities presented to enemies by the fragmentation of Western Europe?

Life for me is a learning process. When learning is replaced by dogma we are in dangerous territory.

I predict significant damage to both sides in the negotiations. There will be no " winners" apart from V Putin maybe.
The economic hit from brexit is minuscule, even the hardest of hard brexits, even then, the people who voted to leave, have f**k all anyway, so what have they got to lose? food they get from a foodbank anyway? a job they get paid the min wage on?

Plot twist, how greedy do you personally want to be before all our parliament does is legislate what colour paper the laws from Brussels come here on?
 
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In the UK Parliament is sovereign not the people, so the result of the referendum is purely advisory and this should have been spelled out clearly throughout the campaign. The elected government could have then chosen to ignore it or place certain caveats on the result if they felt it would not be in the best interests of the country, plus it would have been a strong negotiating tool with Brussels. However, they chose not to and we are now leaving in some woolly form or another that could well see us with many of the disadvantages of the EU and fewer of the advantages.

I concur that Parliamentary Sovereignty is part of the British Constitution. I spent more than a few years in my younger days studying such matters - successfully.

The referendum may only have been advisory, but there are many practising UK lawyers who would disagree with that. See this link
http://www.lawyersforbritain.org/referendum-binding.shtml

A small extract from it is:

First, the Conservative General Election Manifesto of 2015 promised a referendum on membership of the EU in the following terms:
“We believe in letting the people decide: so we will hold an in-out referendum on our membership of the EU before the end of 2017.”It should be noted that the election promise was to “let the people decide”. It was not a promise to hold an advisory referendum, with the final decision being left to Parliament. Nor was there any mention of minimum thresholds of percentage of vote or of turnout before the referendum would be binding. Therefore the British people were given a politically and constitutionally binding promise in the election manifesto of the successful party that they would be given the final and deciding say in a referendum in which the majority would prevail
.

How about this one:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...ust-accept-eu-referendum-result-a3263046.html

and this
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...gues-to-accept-the-result-of-eu-a7094726.html

I particularly liked the then PM's statement on the result:

HANSARD
27 June 2016
Volume 612 3.31 pm
  • The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)

    With permission, Mr Speaker, I will make a statement on the result of the EU referendum.

    Last week saw one of the biggest democratic exercises in our history, with more than 33 million people from England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar all having their say. We should be proud of our parliamentary democracy, but it is right that, when we consider questions of this magnitude, we do not just leave it to politicians but listen directly to the people. That is why Members on both sides of the House voted for a referendum by a margin of six to one.

The quyestion remains to you - What are you prepared to do "within the rules" to overturn the result of the ballot?
 

Exfarmer

Member
Location
Bury St Edmunds
The economic hit from brexit is minuscule, even the hardest of hard brexits, even then, the people who voted to leave, have fudge all anyway, so what have they got to lose? food they get from a foodbank anyway? a job they get paid the min wage on?

Plot twist, how greedy do you personally want to be before all our parliament does is legislate what colour paper the laws from Brussels come here on?

The economic hit may be minuscule , in fact probably at least 10% of the economy in thr mid term and no guarantee that it will noy be for the long term.
It may be miniscule exceot that any cut in the economy hits the poorest first. So those at the bottom of the heap wil, be the ones to carry the can.
There is no escape from this e onomuc fact, we can if we choose hit the rich hard with taxes, except I doubt Boris and his friends are really thinking that way. JC certainly is butbthe fact is if he wins the economy will go tits up, so we may have a short term gain for the poor as he squeezes the pips to quote another JC , James Callaghan, but you should look to Cuba and Venezaula to look who is the real losers in those countries of workers paradise
 
The economic hit may be minuscule , in fact probably at least 10% of the economy in thr mid term and no guarantee that it will noy be for the long term.
It may be miniscule exceot that any cut in the economy hits the poorest first. So those at the bottom of the heap wil, be the ones to carry the can.
There is no escape from this e onomuc fact, we can if we choose hit the rich hard with taxes, except I doubt Boris and his friends are really thinking that way. JC certainly is butbthe fact is if he wins the economy will go tits up, so we may have a short term gain for the poor as he squeezes the pips to quote another JC , James Callaghan, but you should look to Cuba and Venezaula to look who is the real losers in those countries of workers paradise


We already have implemented quite a few government systems which specifically target the poorest.

Firstly austerity which directly targets restraint which obviously affects those on the lowest incomes and assets directly.

Climate change taxes, the rich make money off climate change the poor have to pay for climate change.

Energy market, the poorest sections of society pay the highest rates of energy both because they tend to be on pay as you go meters AND they use the least amount of energy. Those that use the most pay the least.

High house prices mean those that rent, which are the poor, pay the most for their first house if they ever get one, in which case while renting they pay for their housing many times over whilst being subject to the worst conditions.

The Conservatives & Labour are both guilty of destroying not only people's financial livelihoods but also their prospects by for example the grants to train medical staff being removed, university fees .. whilst on the side the RIch have benefitted massively from PFI building contracts & finance.
 

Exfarmer

Member
Location
Bury St Edmunds
We already have implemented quite a few government systems which specifically target the poorest.

Firstly austerity which directly targets restraint which obviously affects those on the lowest incomes and assets directly.

Climate change taxes, the rich make money off climate change the poor have to pay for climate change.

Energy market, the poorest sections of society pay the highest rates of energy both because they tend to be on pay as you go meters AND they use the least amount of energy. Those that use the most pay the least.

High house prices mean those that rent, which are the poor, pay the most for their first house if they ever get one, in which case while renting they pay for their housing many times over whilst being subject to the worst conditions.

The Conservatives & Labour are both guilty of destroying not only people's financial livelihoods but also their prospects by for example the grants to train medical staff being removed, university fees .. whilst on the side the RIch have benefitted massively from PFI building contracts & finance.
Sorry I just got the message!
I know I am not very bright, I had thought the Brexit message was to help the lower sections of society who oeverwhelmingly voted Brexit as they thought it would bring better paid jobs .
I know realise I was completely wrong! I get it now, it is to further us rich people in getting richer, just like it has been for the last few years.
Sod those poor people!
 
Sorry I just got the message!
I know I am not very bright, I had thought the Brexit message was to help the lower sections of society who oeverwhelmingly voted Brexit as they thought it would bring better paid jobs .
I know realise I was completely wrong! I get it now, it is to further us rich people in getting richer, just like it has been for the last few years.
Sod those poor people!


I'm not saying that at all.

I'm just pointing out the duplicity of your message.

You seem concerned about the poor because of Brexit whilst being a beneificary by default from the poorest in society.

Sorry for the confusion.
 

rob1

Member
Location
wiltshire
The economic hit may be minuscule , in fact probably at least 10% of the economy in thr mid term and no guarantee that it will noy be for the long term.
It may be miniscule exceot that any cut in the economy hits the poorest first. So those at the bottom of the heap wil, be the ones to carry the can.
There is no escape from this e onomuc fact, we can if we choose hit the rich hard with taxes, except I doubt Boris and his friends are really thinking that way. JC certainly is butbthe fact is if he wins the economy will go tits up, so we may have a short term gain for the poor as he squeezes the pips to quote another JC , James Callaghan, but you should look to Cuba and Venezaula to look who is the real losers in those countries of workers paradise
The total exports to the EU is 8% of our gdp, not sen anyone suggest we would lose all exports even if we end up as no deal. Still lots of scare mongering going on by those who have done well fron the EU. The more it pushes ibto poor countries the more we will pay and the more cheap rubbish we will be forced to take and more dodgy people will arrive
 

Ashtree

Member
The total exports to the EU is 8% of our gdp, not sen anyone suggest we would lose all exports even if we end up as no deal. Still lots of scare mongering going on by those who have done well fron the EU. The more it pushes ibto poor countries the more we will pay and the more cheap rubbish we will be forced to take and more dodgy people will arrive

And the other side of that srgument being once Boris et al, have concluded their raft of free trade deals around the world, cheap stuff coming in will suddenly stop! Dream on man. Cheap is about to get way, way cheaper. That’s about the only truth the Brexiteers have come officially out with to date. They openly admit it !
 

rob1

Member
Location
wiltshire
And the other side of that srgument being once Boris et al, have concluded their raft of free trade deals around the world, cheap stuff coming in will suddenly stop! Dream on man. Cheap is about to get way, way cheaper. That’s about the only truth the Brexiteers have come officially out with to date. They openly admit it !
big difference between cheap and cheap rubbish, of course your membership is going to get way more expensive :rolleyes::ROFLMAO:
 

More to life

Member
Location
Somerset
The total exports to the EU is 8% of our gdp, not sen anyone suggest we would lose all exports even if we end up as no deal. Still lots of scare mongering going on by those who have done well fron the EU. The more it pushes ibto poor countries the more we will pay and the more cheap rubbish we will be forced to take and more dodgy people will arrive
Yes but 44% of total exports it's not small beer
 

rob1

Member
Location
wiltshire
Yes but 44% of total exports it's not small beer
Of course its not, but how much would we lose if we went WTO tariffs,not seen any remainer put a figure on it, lower pound so far has meant our exports would be cheaper even with Tariffs whereas imports woulld be dearer, of course sheepmeat would be harder hit but the value of that is very small in the big scheme of things. Its so complicated that it is totally impossible to give an accurate guess as to what the five year impact would be, on either side.AsI have said many times if we went back to a purely trading block and for only those countries that can make a positive contribution then I would be in favour of staying, but we have long since passed that place and are rushing headlong into a US of E,I dont believe there is any will anywhere in europe except brussels that wants that. Lets have a vote in every country and if Im wrong lets do it, not a drip drip into it with the citizens having no choice even if they like Ireland did voted it down and tolld to keep votinng until they gave the right answer.
Brexit is far more than just an economic decision, IMVHO
 

RobFZS

Member
The economic hit may be minuscule , in fact probably at least 10% of the economy in thr mid term and no guarantee that it will noy be for the long term.
It may be miniscule exceot that any cut in the economy hits the poorest first. So those at the bottom of the heap wil, be the ones to carry the can.
There is no escape from this e onomuc fact, we can if we choose hit the rich hard with taxes, except I doubt Boris and his friends are really thinking that way. JC certainly is butbthe fact is if he wins the economy will go tits up, so we may have a short term gain for the poor as he squeezes the pips to quote another JC , James Callaghan, but you should look to Cuba and Venezaula to look who is the real losers in those countries of workers paradise
On the worst case scenario, 10% hit, which on the grand scheme of things, is pittance, the tories are out of ideas, it's the same old political cycle, the tories balence the books then people think the grass is greener, go to Labour, make us broke and the Tories have a purpose again, the borrowing Corbyn and his Pal's are suggesting dwarfs any losses from Brexit, so it's small fry, the Tories can say what they like, but they've got 5 years max before they're out, they cant out spend Labour and they have nothing else to offer.
 

RobFZS

Member
Yes but 44% of total exports it's not small beer
It's sweet FA, if anyone gave a sh!t about exporters, they wouldn't be crying about the weak pound every 5 mins, we're a consumer driven economy that produces nothing but paper shuffling and debt, exports are the cream on the top and either way, they're going to continue , at a possible lesser level.


The people who voted for brexit weighed up if they wanted to be a rich servant, or a poor master and they came out with being the master just as people do when they move out of their parents house, or when someone quits the security of being employed for a company to go self employed.
 

More to life

Member
Location
Somerset
It's sweet FA, if anyone gave a sh!t about exporters, they wouldn't be crying about the weak pound every 5 mins, we're a consumer driven economy that produces nothing but paper shuffling and debt, exports are the cream on the top and either way, they're going to continue , at a possible lesser level.


The people who voted for brexit weighed up if they wanted to be a rich servant, or a poor master and they came out with being the master just as people do when they move out of their parents house, or when someone quits the security of being employed for a company to go self employed.
Your ushally very good with facts dismissing our export trade as FA is a little far fetched.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 79 42.5%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 65 34.9%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 30 16.1%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 6 3.2%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,287
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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