AB15 2 year legume fallow

[Hindsight]

Here’s the latest version
https://www.gov.uk/countryside-stewardship-grants/two-year-sown-legume-fallow-ab15#history

there are now some inconsistencies with the recommended seed mix such as now no species can be more the 50% by weight, but the recommended mix has 66% ryegrass, and there must be a minimum of 6 flowering species but the recommended mix only has 5 species total!

Few things.

1 - I have been involved putting together a couple of Mid Tiers. In both used AB15 'incorrectly' in that small areas planned to be in same place for five years, rather than AB8 which was probably the 'correct' option. I was told by NE that leaving in same place was not the initial intention but the rules did not forbade that as AB15 is an arable 'crop' so can follow AB15; and there is a window from 15 August to 7 September to re-establish Ab15 after two years. I will have to see how an inspector views this if the schemes are inspected through there lifetime!!

2 - This tweaking with the option rules is so understandable, but can create issues at inspection leading to penalties if one is working off the wrong edition of the rule book. That happened with ELS. Can imagine the confusion on forums such as this once there is more than one prescription for an option. And Mr Eustace and the other stupid ministers waffle on about reducing bureaucracy - fools with no idea what it is like when the RPA inspectorate visit.

Hey ho.

 

[Feldspar]

Few things.

1 - I have been involved putting together a couple of Mid Tiers. In both used AB15 'incorrectly' in that small areas planned to be in same place for five years, rather than AB8 which was probably the 'correct' option. I was told by NE that leaving in same place was not the initial intention but the rules did not forbade that as AB15 is an arable 'crop' so can follow AB15; and there is a window from 15 August to 7 September to re-establish Ab15 after two years. I will have to see how an inspector views this if the schemes are inspected through there lifetime!!

2 - This tweaking with the option rules is so understandable, but can create issues at inspection leading to penalties if one is working off the wrong edition of the rule book. That happened with ELS. Can imagine the confusion on forums such as this once there is more than one prescription for an option. And Mr Eustace and the other stupid ministers waffle on about reducing bureaucracy - fools with no idea what it is like when the RPA inspectorate visit.

Hey ho.

Is your understanding that people with schemes that say started in 2019 will now have to follow these new option rules, or are the changes only for new entrants?

 

[B'o'B]

Few things.

1 - I have been involved putting together a couple of Mid Tiers. In both used AB15 'incorrectly' in that small areas planned to be in same place for five years, rather than AB8 which was probably the 'correct' option. I was told by NE that leaving in same place was not the initial intention but the rules did not forbade that as AB15 is an arable 'crop' so can follow AB15; and there is a window from 15 August to 7 September to re-establish Ab15 after two years. I will have to see how an inspector views this if the schemes are inspected through there lifetime!!

2 - This tweaking with the option rules is so understandable, but can create issues at inspection leading to penalties if one is working off the wrong edition of the rule book. That happened with ELS. Can imagine the confusion on forums such as this once there is more than one prescription for an option. And Mr Eustace and the other stupid ministers waffle on about reducing bureaucracy - fools with no idea what it is like when the RPA inspectorate visit.

Hey ho.

You and any inspector has to follow the rules a laid out in the agreement document for your scheme. (Or at least that’s how it should work!)
I’m wondering if I can get that document amended to the current rules, guess I’ll have to give them a call.

 

[B'o'B]

Is your understanding that people with schemes that say started in 2019 will now have to follow these new option rules, or are the changes only for new entrants?

It will be for new entrants as your scheme requirements are written into your individual scheme agreement. But I don’t know if you can apply to amend a current agreements to new rules.

 

[Hindsight]

Is your understanding that people with schemes that say started in 2019 will now have to follow these new option rules, or are the changes only for new entrants?

Hi, I do not know. But now B'oB has mentioned 'changes' I will investigate.

I helped put together three mid tier applications back in 2017 and 2018. But I subsequently took the view there was potential for confusion / error and litigious claim. And they are time consuming to do at a busy time of year for me. So from 2019 I have directed anyone asking me to a specialist - and ex FWAG man that specialises in stewardship schemes.

I am always irritated and annoyed when politicians say these schemes should be easy to complete. Gove said it last year at was it the Oxford conference or similar with his comment a farmer should be able to start at 9 have lunch finish at 5.30 then reward self with a pint in the pub. He was applauded by the farmers - which irritated me even more. He is totally correct but in practice, in my opinion, that is not how these schemes are run or policed - and whatever Eustace or any of the puffed up politics say I doubt they ever will.

I will calm down now and reward myself with a pint of pale ale! Have fingers and toes crossed and am in spirit at Carrow Road!

Cheers.

 

[B'o'B]

Hi, I do not know. But now B'oB has mentioned 'changes' I will investigate.

I helped put together three mid tier applications back in 2017 and 2018. But I subsequently took the view there was potential for confusion / error and litigious claim. And they are time consuming to do at a busy time of year for me. So from 2019 I have directed anyone asking me to a specialist - and ex FWAG man that specialises in stewardship schemes.

I am always irritated and annoyed when politicians say these schemes should be easy to complete. Gove said it last year at was it the Oxford conference or similar with his comment a farmer should be able to start at 9 have lunch finish at 5.30 then reward self with a pint in the pub. He was applauded by the farmers - which irritated me even more. He is totally correct but in practice, in my opinion, that is not how these schemes are run or policed - and whatever Eustace or any of the puffed up politics say I doubt they ever will.

I will calm down now and reward myself with a pint of pale ale! Have fingers and toes crossed and am in spirit at Carrow Road!

Cheers.

To be fair to Gove I think he was talking about why he introduced the simplified schemes which are indeed much simpler to apply for.
The rule you need to adhere to are repeated in the agreement document to save confusion when the rules change, as long as you can find your agreement you can find the rules for it!

 

[spin cycle]

I see for AB8 they now say you must take photos of each plot and not just if requested. A bit of extra work but not too bad. Overall they don't appear to have changed the fundamentals of the scheme, which is good. There was something though about funding being only guaranteed until 2023.

I also note that for AB9 they have increased the number of species that are required in the mix. And they want photos of them too, which wasn't a requirement before in response to farmers saying the requirements are too onerous.

taking a few photos isn't omerous....but if they don't like the look of the photos then there's trouble?

some of these complicated mixture options are 'minefields' IMO

 

[DRC]

I’ve noticed that the rules now state they will come and look at your options, and only pay you if they think the option has delivered its objective, which must surely be up for debate

 

[Hindsight]

I’ve noticed that the rules now state they will come and look at your options, and only pay you if they think the option has delivered its objective, which must surely be up for debate

I find that unnerving. There enters an element of subjectivity. One of the Mid Tiers I assisted with was inspected last August. The inspector was fair. When he arrived for the inspection we told him the AB9 bird cover had established indifferently - basically the brassica component was destroyed and some other species were poor. But he said was aware a difficult year for establishment. At the wash up session he accepted all the covers and went on his way.

 

[spin cycle]

I find that unnerving. There enters an element of subjectivity. One of the Mid Tiers I assisted with was inspected last August. The inspector was fair. When he arrived for the inspection we told him the AB9 bird cover had established indifferently - basically the brassica component was destroyed and some other species were poor. But he said was aware a difficult year for establishment. At the wash up session he accepted all the covers and went on his way.

TBF though if you grew a sh!t/low yielding crop you wouldn't get paid......thus if they're paying you to grow a crop for wildlife why should they pay if it's rubbish

However some of the attractive mix options are fraught with danger.....how do you control weeds in some or what if flea beetle take out a component of another......grey area is to what extent are each responsible?.....i suppose rpa would say don't grow it if you think you can't make a go of it?

 

[steveR]

taking a few photos isn't omerous....but if they don't like the look of the photos then there's trouble?

some of these complicated mixture options are 'minefields' IMO

A quick pass with a drone may be in Order!!

 

[Flat 10]

TBF though if you grew a sh!t/low yielding crop you wouldn't get paid......thus if they're paying you to grow a crop for wildlife why should they pay if it's rubbish

However some of the attractive mix options are fraught with danger.....how do you control weeds in some or what if flea beetle take out a component of another......grey area is to what extent are each responsible?.....i suppose rpa would say don't grow it if you think you can't make a go of it?

I don’t expect that they view it in this way; but I think you should make a reasonable attempt to establish the crop ie properly prepare a seedbed, spray off weeds , drill and roll at the correct time use fert if necessary. If then something out of your control happens you have tried as hard as you would with a crop. I don’t think it’s reasonable to chuck prescripted mix out of a slug Pelleter day onto stubble and say I’ve sowed it pay me. Obviously that’s too sensible for defra but that’s how I’ve tried to do it. Interestingly flea beetle hammered kale seedlings in mine but it eventually got away from them and seemingly suffered very little from larval damage. My biggest problem was rooks.

 

[Neddy flanders]

if i've understood correctly, I could put my entire farm in this or similar options and sail off into the sunset...….

 

[Cutlerstom]

if i've understood correctly, I could put my entire farm in this or similar options and sail off into the sunset...….

I know quite a few people that have put a large area in to this, simply due to blackgrass pressure. 200ha + on one farm.
I see it as a good option to replace 2 crops in my rotation on a couple of fields. Spring barley and beans can be a bit hit and miss margin wise, and i think knowing what im getting, coupled with perhaps the opportunity to add some diversity into the soil could be good.
AB8 is a great option i use for awkward areas (line of poles 12m into field for eg) and also patches of blackgrass on headland. I can also see it as a good option for 4m around every field to enable winter hedgecutting and helping pollinators around the entire boundary. Like all these options if they paid just a bit more they would be an easier sell. Im going to try AB8 on a 15m wide strip to turn on with drill to see if i can improve the overall field yield.

 

[Hindsight]

if i've understood correctly, I could put my entire farm in this or similar options and sail off into the sunset...….

Yes, subject to an application being accepted. Although intended to be competitive in the past few years since inception in 2015 Mid Tier has been under subscribed. Whether that will be the case this application window I do not know.

You would of course be forced to forgo the pleasure of attempting to establish Oilseed Rape, spray for blackgrass, play poker bluff with the autumn weather as you delay sowing by those few extra days; the annual Red Tractor Assurance inspection, the unexpected specific weight claims, admix claims which contrast with the merchants post harvest sample report - but you will also miss the lovely young lady that you grain merchant employs as harvest labour to sample the store, hopefully dressed in suitable warm harvest weather attire.

And all for what. Days and months aboard a cruise ship in a warm Caribbean sea, drinking pina colada, taking the occasional dip in the on board pool, maybe some snorkelling when the ship is moored up. Possibly taking a break from the cruise ship for a weeks skiing.

 

[DRC]

I know quite a few people that have put a large area in to this, simply due to blackgrass pressure. 200ha + on one farm.
I see it as a good option to replace 2 crops in my rotation on a couple of fields. Spring barley and beans can be a bit hit and miss margin wise, and i think knowing what im getting, coupled with perhaps the opportunity to add some diversity into the soil could be good.
AB8 is a great option i use for awkward areas (line of poles 12m into field for eg) and also patches of blackgrass on headland. I can also see it as a good option for 4m around every field to enable winter hedgecutting and helping pollinators around the entire boundary. Like all these options if they paid just a bit more they would be an easier sell. Im going to try AB8 on a 15m wide strip to turn on with drill to see if i can improve the overall field yield.

Be careful with that, as if your seen to have run on the headlands with your drill tractor, it’ll be seen as not sticking to the rules, with potentially non payment .

 

[DRC]

Yes, subject to an application being accepted. Although intended to be competitive in the past few years since inception in 2015 Mid Tier has been under subscribed. Whether than will be the case this application window I do not know.

You would of course be forced to forgo the pleasure of attempting to establish Oilseed Rape, spray for blackgrass, play poker bluff with the autumn whether as you delay sowing by those few extra days; the annual Red Tractor Assurance inspection, the unexpected specific weight claims, admix claims which contrast with the merchants post harvest sample report - but you will also miss the lovely young lady that you grain merchant employs as harvest labour to sample the store, hopefully dressed in suitable warm harvest weather attire.

And all for what. Days and months aboard a cruise ship in a warm Caribbean sea, drinking pina colada, taking the occasional dip in the on board pool, maybe some snorkelling when the ship is moored up. Possibly taking a break from the cruise ship for a weeks skiing.

And crucially , hoping you get paid on time. Maybe ok if your farm is bought and paid for, but a bit of a gamble as a tenant .

 

[Hindsight]

And crucially , hoping you get paid on time. Maybe ok if your farm is bought and paid for, but a bit of a gamble as a tenant .

Interesting you say that. I am going to suggest to a AHA tenant of older years who 'contracts' out his land that he might (would) be better to put as much into mid tier as he can to guarnetee an income over next five years as BPS declines. Smallish farm wet clay, fair bit currently 'underwater'. I am going to suggest he takes advice. I meant to suggest this a year ago but 'chickened' out - as it is it would have been ideal. Hey ho.

 

[Flat 10]

Yes, subject to an application being accepted. Although intended to be competitive in the past few years since inception in 2015 Mid Tier has been under subscribed. Whether that will be the case this application window I do not know.

You would of course be forced to forgo the pleasure of attempting to establish Oilseed Rape, spray for blackgrass, play poker bluff with the autumn weather as you delay sowing by those few extra days; the annual Red Tractor Assurance inspection, the unexpected specific weight claims, admix claims which contrast with the merchants post harvest sample report - but you will also miss the lovely young lady that you grain merchant employs as harvest labour to sample the store, hopefully dressed in suitable warm harvest weather attire.

And all for what. Days and months aboard a cruise ship in a warm Caribbean sea, drinking pina colada, taking the occasional dip in the on board pool, maybe some snorkelling when the ship is moored up. Possibly taking a break from the cruise ship for a weeks skiing.

Basic offer not competitive? But restricted options not including ab15?

 

[DRC]

Interesting you say that. I am going to suggest to a AHA tenant of older years who 'contracts' out his land that he might (would) be better to put as much into mid tier as he can to guarnetee an income over next five years as BPS declines. Smallish farm wet clay, fair bit currently 'underwater'. I am going to suggest he takes advice. I meant to suggest this a year ago but 'chickened' out - as it is it would have been ideal. Hey ho.

I can understand that . It was only seeing the payments debacle that stopped me accepting the two mid tier offers I’ve had. Looked a good decision in the dry year when wheat hit £200 ton, but this year I maybe wish half the farm was in mid tier. Although if I’d gone into it, and the legume mix had failed due to the wet weather , would they have paid out or not ?