Ag chemicals back on Farm Marketplace

[neilo]

Well, Clive is going have some interesting crops indeed next year when all they are sprayed with is generic CTL and Teb, I'll say that!

Do you really think big name chemical manufacturers are going to be all that keen to sell you the few hundred litres of Librax you want next year if you are going to try this stunt?

You need to understand: Big name chemical manufacturers do not want their product being hawked around like it is washing up liquid. Read and repeat.

Now that's a surprising response from a service agronomist.

 

[franklin]

Well, Clive is going have some interesting crops indeed next year when all they are sprayed with is generic CTL and Teb, I'll say that!

Do you really think big name chemical manufacturers are going to be all that keen to sell you the few hundred litres of Librax you want next year if you are going to try this stunt?

You need to understand: Big name chemical manufacturers do not want their product being hawked around like it is washing up liquid. Read and repeat.

Big name manufacturers will be the first to cry "unfair" when a few farmers get together to try and get better deals. How many large ag-chem / fert firms are there now? Anything to get more power to us and less to them is a great thing. In the same way, anything that hastens the reduction in service agronomy margins is also a good thing.

 

[An Gof]

Well, Clive is going have some interesting crops indeed next year when all they are sprayed with is generic CTL and Teb, I'll say that!

Do you really think big name chemical manufacturers are going to be all that keen to sell you the few hundred litres of Librax you want next year if you are going to try this stunt?

You need to understand: Big name chemical manufacturers do not want their product being hawked around like it is washing up liquid. Read and repeat.

Nice post .......... not

Thanks for reminding me why some reps and their companies are best avoided.

 

[ollie989898]

You guys can cry in your milk all you like. Whether serviced agronomy exists as a thing or not, chemical manufacturers (note I am not confusing these with distributors) do not want their product churned out to all and sundry like something you might find on the shelf in Wilko. They control the supply and they will simply refuse to manufacture the stuff in the first place (much less supply it), you will not hold them over a barrel and they will not deal direct with farmers for the exact same reasons they do not deal directly with buying groups.

The are billions of pounds spent on this stuff and the majority of it is is in R & D. It costs in excess of 300 million just to submit a product for re-approval much less invent something the first time around.

All this kind of caper has been tried before in various markets, notably in the US. As a net result, you try buying a can of Chlormequat there.

Don't you chaps realise that the reason there are now so few companies involved in the supply side of agriculture UK is because market conditions are a lot tougher than they were in the 80s?


Best of luck with your new venture nonetheless. Enjoy your 20,000 litres of counterfeit CTL from Azerbaijan each year and then wonder why none of the chemical companies bother to subject it for re-approval in 2020.

 

[Clive]

Well, Clive is going have some interesting crops indeed next year when all they are sprayed with is generic CTL and Teb, I'll say that!

Do you really think big name chemical manufacturers are going to be all that keen to sell you the few hundred litres of Librax you want next year if you are going to try this stunt?

You need to understand: Big name chemical manufacturers do not want their product being hawked around like it is washing up liquid. Read and repeat.

I really wouldn'tbe quite so sure about that ;-)

 

[Clive]

Nice post .......... not

Thanks for reminding me why some reps and their companies are best avoided.

Never has a post on this forum demonstrated quite so well the real attitude some parts of the supply trade have towards farmers

 

[Clive]

You guys can cry in your milk all you like. Whether serviced agronomy exists as a thing or not, chemical manufacturers (note I am not confusing these with distributors) do not want their product churned out to all and sundry like something you might find on the shelf in Wilko. They control the supply and they will simply refuse to manufacture the stuff in the first place (much less supply it), you will not hold them over a barrel and they will not deal direct with farmers for the exact same reasons they do not deal directly with buying groups.

The are billions of pounds spent on this stuff and the majority of it is is in R & D. It costs in excess of 300 million just to submit a product for re-approval much less invent something the first time around.

All this kind of caper has been tried before in various markets, notably in the US. As a net result, you try buying a can of Chlormequat there.

Don't you chaps realise that the reason there are now so few companies involved in the supply side of agriculture UK is because market conditions are a lot tougher than they were in the 80s?


Best of luck with your new venture nonetheless. Enjoy your 20,000 litres of counterfeit CTL from Azerbaijan each year and then wonder why none of the chemical companies bother to subject it for re-approval in 2020.

Ever noticed how the smart big manufactures and r&d companies like Apple control prices ? Yes that's right, they don't allow middlemen like you to screw them !

Be afraid ! Farm marketplace gives them direct access to market, why do they need you ? Everyone knows rates and timings of fungicides !

 

[ollie989898]

I really wouldn'tbe quite so sure about that ;-)

It matters not to me Clive, but I can assure you they are all well aware of what chemicals cost to bring to market, how much it costs to submit them for approval and how many units of product they can expect to sell annually in the UK.

If you begin to interfere with any of the above, their sums will not add up and you will lose products purely on commercial grounds. It has already happened even in my short tenure and it will undoubtedly happen again. I'm not talking about people refusing to supply you personally, I am talking about the industry losing an active completely because no one will submit the data for them to begin an approval process.

They have their hands on the taps and the UK and Europe is not their only game, if you screw one active hard enough they will just divert it somewhere else or stop making it. Someone has to make a shilling out of the product or it just won't be done. You saw how they reacted when the issue of extremely cheap imported products came on the radar. Now you are trying to tell me they are AOK with it being a crapshoot?

These companies are not stupid Clive, they talk to one another, you don't think someone hasn't tried to strong arm them before?

 

[Clive]

It matters not to me Clive, but I can assure you they are all well aware of what chemicals cost to bring to market, how much it costs to submit them for approval and how many units of product they can expect to sell annually in the UK.

If you begin to interfere with any of the above, their sums will not add up and you will lose products purely on commercial grounds. It has already happened even in my short tenure and it will undoubtedly happen again. I'm not talking about people refusing to supply you personally, I am talking about the industry losing an active completely because no one will submit the data for them to begin an approval process.

They have their hands on the taps and the UK and Europe is not their only game, if you screw one active hard enough they will just divert it somewhere else or stop making it. Someone has to make a shilling out of the product or it just won't be done. You saw how they reacted when the issue of extremely cheap imported products came on the radar. Now you are trying to tell me they are AOK with it being a crapshoot?

These companies are not stupid Clive, they talk to one another, you don't think someone hasn't tried to strong arm them before?

I know they are not stupid, I have been and still am talking to them all

They are a LOT smarter than you think !

 

[ollie989898]

Ever noticed how the smart big manufactures and r&d companies like Apple control prices ? Yes that's right, they don't allow middlemen like you to screw them !

Be afraid ! Farm marketplace gives them direct access to market, why do they need you ? Everyone knows rates and timings of fungicides !

LOL Clive, come along now. You are comparing a very high value branded product line with that of an agrochemical you are saying they want to flog for no margin?

You think distributors are in the business of screwing chemical companies? How does that work?

The chemical companies have had the opportunity to sell direct to market for decades. But they haven't. Why do you suppose that is?

You have a very vivid imagination.

 

[ollie989898]

I know they are not stupid, I have been and still am talking to them all

They are a LOT smarter than you think !

They are undoubtedly very clever people or they would not choose to involve themselves in such a complex business with the regulatory and technical hurdles involved.

As I said, it does not matter a jot to me.

 

[Clive]

LOL Clive, come along now. You are comparing a very high value branded product line with that of an agrochemical you are saying they want to flog for no margin?

You think distributors are in the business of screwing chemical companies? How does that work?

The chemical companies have had the opportunity to sell direct to market for decades. But they haven't. Why do you suppose that is?

You have a very vivid imagination.

I assume you have sat in rooms an discussed this with the bosses of many of these companies ?

Sorry but I have far more pressing things to do today than educate a poorly informed chemical salesmen

I would be amazed if your last 3 posts have not cost your company sales already ! Ask yourself what a farmer reading them must think !

 

[Clive]

As I said, it does not matter a jot to me.

Clearly

 

[ollie989898]

I assume you have sat in rooms an discussed this with the bosses of many of these companies ?

Sorry but I have far more pressing things to do today than educate a poorly informed chemical salesmen

I would be amazed if your last 3 posts have not cost your company sales already ! Ask yourself what a farmer reading them must think !

The posts I have made make no reference to any other part of the supply trade whatsoever, I was discussing the thinking of very large chemical companies who operate at a global level involved in the manufacture of chemical products. These are huge companies with turnovers in the billions who operate worldwide and employ thousands of people worldwide. In many cases agricultural products are just another part of their business model.

As you undoubtedly know they will supply large volumes of material into other overseas markets simply due to vast areas involved, some of which is 'farmed' (if you can call it that) by very large corporations. If ever an opportunity to trade direct to the end user, that is surely it, as opposed to collecting thousands of individual orders for hundreds of different products from growers across an entire country??

I think you and I are thinking of totally different companies perhaps, that might be the difference.

All I will say is that if I have somehow offended you then please do accept my apologies, that was not my intention.

I am confused really about exactly what I have written that appears so unreasonable or outlandish or difficult to accept. It's not even controversial really either. Is it totally impossible to believe that if I had spent several hundred million dollars developing a novel SDHI fungicide, ('JAGUAR TYPE F' lets call it) collected and presented the data to the relevant national and in some cases international regulatory bodies, presented the environmental fate and eco-tox profiles, and then sold it to market, after all that, do you think I would want to see it sold around like a collection of Ford Focuses at carsupermarket.com?? Do you think my marketing strategy might need some work?

 

[An Gof]

These companies are not stupid Clive, they talk to one another, you don't think someone hasn't tried to strong arm them before?

Be careful what you post. Do you know that for a fact? If so it is in breach of competition law for which the penalties are severe. No major company would want to be caught falling foul of this. If YOU know it's a fact you should report it and do us all a favour. If you DO KNOW it is happening you are complicit and can be found guilty.
Competition Law is not something to take lightly.

Now, are you sure about your statements?

 

[ollie989898]

Be careful what you post. Do you know that for a fact? If so it is in breach of competition law for which the penalties are severe. No major company would want to be caught falling foul of this. If YOU know it's a fact you should report it and do us all a favour. If you DO KNOW it is happening you are complicit and can be found guilty.
Competition Law is not something to take lightly.

Now, are you sure about your statements?

They all know the size of the UK market, I have heard it quoted many times although I still can't remember it, normally the topic of conversation is Asia where huge acreages of rice are grown and I lose track. I did not mean to suggest they were involved in market collusion which as you say is a rather serious matter indeed. Although since they are all providing a huge variety of differing products I am not sure they would be able to anyway, it's not like fixing the price of natural gas, for example.

 

[An Gof]

They all know the size of the UK market, I have heard it quoted many times although I still can't remember it, normally the topic of conversation is Asia where huge acreages of rice are grown and I lose track. I did not mean to suggest they were involved in market collusion which as you say is a rather serious matter indeed. Although since they are all providing a huge variety of differing products I am not sure they would be able to anyway, it's not like fixing the price of natural gas, for example.

They at providing different products, you are correct. BUT the close relationship between alternatives for T1 or T2 etc when priced on a £/Ha basis often shows a remarkable similarity.

 

[ollie989898]

They at providing different products, you are correct. BUT the close relationship between alternatives for T1 or T2 etc when priced on a £/Ha basis often shows a remarkable similarity.

I wish all product comparisons were that simple for me. There is a huge amount of technical support and trials data behind most products these days. The best option technically may or may not be the lowest cost per ha, it all rather depends what you are attempting to do. Of course the ultimate decision lies with the grower, reducing rates, reducing tank mix options, changing timings, the weather, and so on.

In some ways it is useful to have the support and backup from the people who manufacture the product so that you have the confidence to recommend it's use and also get the best performance from it. It is obvious from what I have personally learned that an immense amount of work is done to support nearly everything with a label on it and a lot of it is aimed at benefiting the end user himself. I am occasionally asked why product X or Y might seem relatively expensive, it is useful to have a raft of trial data available even if I am not particularly familiar with it.

 

[Rob Holmes]

Surely the point being missed here is that the chem manufacturers WILL still make their margin, they'll sell it direct rather that a middleman taking a slice of the cake

 

[theboytheboy]

They are undoubtedly very clever people or they would not choose to involve themselves in such a complex business with the regulatory and technical hurdles involved.

As I said, it does not matter a jot to me.

If it matters not a jot why are you letting it bother you so much?