Agronomic Advise Received!

richard hammond

Member
BASIS
Firstly this is not an Indi /Trade argument, or a self promotion post!
I feel as an independent agronomist I give advise free of any commercial agenda, including being part of advise groups etc.
Most farmers look to use an indi to save money, is this always right?? If it is on the price of chemical alone then no MR Farmer don't change!
Its, easy to save farmers money through simply telling them to buy less product or buy cheaper, this is not always right as I learnt last year,(Bugger I came second!) Yield and quality is King and will always win out over cheap is best. (Clives Fungicide Trial)
I buy a lot of generic products and have never found a problem if sourced from a quality manufacturer.But please remember generic is generic and not cheap. As I am aware there are a lot of switched on farmers on this site, would an active comparison site be useful between all manufacturers?
Do we like the trade mixes? it might be good to be able to compare like for like!!
I am aware you will slag this post off but think before posting a response!
Richard.
 

franklin

New Member
Cheap not equals best. This is something that applies almost everywhere in life. It's quite interesting here, now I have two distributor agronomists, to compare their prices and approaches. Neither tries to sell me their special mixes. Both are well aware that *margin* is king, although the strong link with output is not disputed.

I think that those who want to compare like-for-like already do this either formally or informally.

Brain engaged before posting response.
 

Shutesy

Moderator
Arable Farmer
Interesting.

What exactly do you mean by "an active comparison site"?
@richard hammond correct me if I'm wrong but I think he means a website where you could compare products with the same active ingredients. I.e. Compare a known fungicide like Prosaro with generic alternatives with active ingredients in g/l etc and how much and what you would need to match the Prosaro, something along those lines anyway.
 
Not an 'independent' vs distributor thread but discusses segregated vs quote products?

If you are independent you should not be involved in buying or selling anything. Just handing out emails in my book.

'independents' whom are in a position where they are able uplift chem prices are not independent in my book.

Classic case was illustrated to me where a farmer decided to get a quote from Frontier as opposed to his usual supplier as recommended by his 'independent' and was astonished by the difference in cost. It didnt take a genius to recognise that his chap was charging an extraordinarily low acreage fee to pick up acres and then supplementing it by uplifting his chems from a supplier he was in cahoots with. Bit naughty really. If I was independent I would make recommendations and let the farmer go and source it, probably from Anglia farmers or another very large group. I dont see why you would muddy the waters doung anything else.
 

richard hammond

Member
BASIS
Not an 'independent' vs distributor thread but discusses segregated vs quote products?

If you are independent you should not be involved in buying or selling anything. Just handing out emails in my book.

'independents' whom are in a position where they are able uplift chem prices are not independent in my book.

Classic case was illustrated to me where a farmer decided to get a quote from Frontier as opposed to his usual supplier as recommended by his 'independent' and was astonished by the difference in cost. It didnt take a genius to recognise that his chap was charging an extraordinarily low acreage fee to pick up acres and then supplementing it by uplifting his chems from a supplier he was in cahoots with. Bit naughty really. If I was independent I would make recommendations and let the farmer go and source it, probably from Anglia farmers or another very large group. I dont see why you would muddy the waters doung anything else.
What you have mentioned is just dishonesty! not an independent/distributor argument.
 

Grass And Grain

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Yorks
I think he means a website where you could compare products with the same active ingredients. I.e. Compare a known fungicide like Prosaro with generic alternatives

Ah right, I see.

If you could build a website that did that it would be good.

If you could get price comparison from suppliers on there as well it would be awesome!

Likelihood of getting suppliers to do that in the ag chemical industry?????

It has happened in many other industries (Electricity, insurance, pensions etc.), and do some buying groups operate a bit like that?

Edit.
Customer makes order through this website. Website owner orders from the suppliers (maybe two or three different ones), customer pays one bill to website owner. Pay before delivery for a discount.

Sorry, I've gone beyond what the OP was first suggesting.
 

Brisel

Member
NFFN Member
Location
North Yorkshire
What did you have in mind @richard hammond ? An online database not unlike Farmade/Farmplan's Sentinel?
upload_2017-1-17_9-14-0.png


Part of the problem with distributor products is that the ingredient levels are different so comapring like with like is harder. I'll take the example of Boogie, Skyway and Aviator. All 3 contain bixafen and prothioconazole. Skyway has tebuconzole as well and is only sold by Frontier I think. Boogie also has spiroxamine but not teb. Sold by Agrii. Both are better than straight Aviator as the extra ingredients improve rust control but dilute the septoria activity/ How do you really compare them? That's market segmentation for you.

For those of us in buying groups, we get mailings about which particular generics are being supported that year thanks to negotiations between the group and a distributor. For example, Rover 500 has been the preferred generic chlorothalonil for years from Anglia Farmers via Zantra. We rely on the group to give us a nudge towards a generic that is actually safe not just cheap. When Cortez first came out after epoxiconazole's patent protection ended, Makhteshim Agan were struggling to formulate it well enough so we were advised not to use it. As it turned out it worked fine and now it's all sorted. Where are we going to get that kind of information from otherwise? A note on this database website as to something dodgy is tantamount to libel.

Sorry to be a party pooper - it's a great idea (y)
 

Brisel

Member
NFFN Member
Location
North Yorkshire
Ah right, I see.

If you could build a website that did that it would be good.

If you could get price comparison from suppliers on there as well it would be awesome!

Likelihood of getting suppliers to do that in the ag chemical industry?????

It has happened in many other industries (Electricity, insurance, pensions etc.), and do some buying groups operate a bit like that?

Edit.
Customer makes order through this website. Website owner orders from the suppliers (maybe two or three different ones), customer pays one bill to website owner. Pay before delivery for a discount.

Sorry, I've gone beyond what the OP was first suggesting.

Is that what Yagro do?

https://yagro.com/
 

franklin

New Member
Pay for agronomy per acre from a chap (or lass) who knows about your business. You should work together knowing what is possible from the land / possible from the chem / expected from the bank.

Farmer should source chem where possible if happy to carry the can (!) if product choice is poor ie duff generic forumation that doesnt rince out, or failing that agron should place orders on farmers behalf through buying group.

Has anyone come across a situation where in indy has recommended a distro-special, or even a manufacturor co-mix where they can get decent straights? Indy should be paid to know their formulations and advise when the use of straights will do the same job for less.

All this is academic if you want to pay some chap tuppence, yet expect him to be on-farm every week and peforming well. Ag-chem is one of my largest input costs and paying some chap an extra £1 an acre is easily recouped if a) you trust them and b) they know what they are doing. Same with things like machinery dealers - if you screw every penny out of them, how can you expect them to have a demo combine etc on hand to help you out when yours goes wrong for a day? You dont buy an expensive cow and expect them to perform on mouldy hay, nor a £350k combine and put the cheapest engine oil in. An extra £1 an acre or so will be easily recouped if they are on-hand to catch disease that bit early etc etc.

An indy agronomist is, after all, a small family business just like I am. I am more inclined to screw the big corporate chem firms to cut cost than beat my spray man down.

So, I'd say that if you are paying an indy, then they should be comparing actives for you. If you are doing your own agronomy, then you should be good enough with Excel / PSD website to be able to compare actives and their prices by yourself.
 

Rob E

Member
Location
England
@richard hammond correct me if I'm wrong but I think he means a website where you could compare products with the same active ingredients. I.e. Compare a known fungicide like Prosaro with generic alternatives with active ingredients in g/l etc and how much and what you would need to match the Prosaro, something along those lines anyway.
Urmm, the green book (or online version) + calculator??
 

richard hammond

Member
BASIS
Ah right, I see.

If you could build a website that did that it would be good.

If you could get price comparison from suppliers on there as well it would be awesome!

Likelihood of getting suppliers to do that in the ag chemical industry?????

It has happened in many other industries (Electricity, insurance, pensions etc.), and do some buying groups operate a bit like that?

Edit.
Customer makes order through this website. Website owner orders from the suppliers (maybe two or three different ones), customer pays one bill to website owner. Pay before delivery for a discount.

Sorry, I've gone beyond what the OP was first suggesting.
Bring it on, I only started the conversation, looking for new ideas, there has to be some! or are we at the end of the road re Ag-Chem advise and input costs??
Is what we have is how it is going to stay for ever?? Any manufacturers wishing to input into this discussion?
 

Grass And Grain

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Yorks
Is what we have is how it is going to stay for ever?

Things usually seem to progress to be more efficient over time. E.g. Consolidation of suppliers, less depots supplying one area etc.

Combine price comparison with an agronomist who can suggest a tank mix of products known to be compatible (and decent formulations) instead of the mixes out of a single can (which usually have a price premium) and I think it could be a good service.

If average 500 acre farm spends say £40k on chemicals and you take just 0.5 percent, that's £200. A lot of farmers in the UK to multiply that £200 by.

The power of the Internet.

Pay before delivery to get a good price.

Someone said there is the green book and a calculator. True, but too slow and the farmer probably won't know if products are compatible.

Computers can fix that.

I'm not an agronomist, but have often thought there are business models that could modernise and transform the current offerings. Not had the agronomy knowledge myself to make it happen.

What about online or phone access to an agronomist for people who do diy agronomy. They may be 95 percent confident and knowledgeable so don't really need an agronomist, but at times would pay to ask for advice a few times a year.

A mini one stop shop TAG, but pay as you go.

A whole plethora of business models and opportunities to change the current offerings. I have learnt there's more than one way to skin a cat and generate revenue with my internet site.
 

richard hammond

Member
BASIS
Things usually seem to progress to be more efficient over time. E.g. Consolidation of suppliers, less depots supplying one area etc.

Combine price comparison with an agronomist who can suggest a tank mix of products known to be compatible (and decent formulations) instead of the mixes out of a single can (which usually have a price premium) and I think it could be a good service.

If average 500 acre farm spends say £40k on chemicals and you take just 0.5 percent, that's £200. A lot of farmers in the UK to multiply that £200 by.

The power of the Internet.

Pay before delivery to get a good price.

Someone said there is the green book and a calculator. True, but too slow and the farmer probably won't know if products are compatible.

Computers can fix that.

I'm not an agronomist, but have often thought there are business models that could modernise and transform the current offerings. Not had the agronomy knowledge myself to make it happen.

What about online or phone access to an agronomist for people who do diy agronomy. They may be 95 percent confident and knowledgeable so don't really need an agronomist, but at times would pay to ask for advice a few times a year.

A mini one stop shop TAG, but pay as you go.

A whole plethora of business models and opportunities to change the current offerings. I have learnt there's more than one way to skin a cat and generate revenue with my internet site.
All good ideas welcome, as they say don't bring me a problem , bring me a solution, . Those who don't want change stay where you are and be happy!
Come on manufacturers we know you are looking, who will be the first to bring something new to the table??
 

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