Albrecht / Kinsey or bust?

After spending three days in the audience at Neal Kinsey's seminar last week and speaking to many of the other attendees. I came away with the feeling that this is the only way to go. Higher yields, better quality and improved stock health. It all seemed almost too good to be true. So where is the catch, if any?

Just wondered what others had to say on the matter?
 
Dip your toe in and see if you like the temperature by trying a few fields. If you get some tests done you may well have to sit down for a moment when you add up the cost of the extra required inputs. The cost is not a problem though if you see compensatory yield increases.
 

Elmsted

Never Forgotten
Honorary Member
Location
Bucharest
Is it not at the end of the day down to Kinsey selling a soil analysis service. That is carried out with full compliance to the teachings of Albrecht. That if one chooses to implement the actions, purchases of materials from other companies is a personal choice. What is clear is that the results in numeric terms do not match other labs. And to an extent hence the levels of fertilisers, etc do not.

It is the different approach to analysis and what to do that is of interest surely. As Neil said there is no contract between farmer and lab. But the analysis seems combined with recomened inputs to provide many with what they want from their land and farms. However. And it is a big but are yeild increases as important as profits or cost per tonne of production.
 
We had our first albrect test in 2001 and it got me looking at balances and specific things. So we started to target certain things other than N,P,K & PH. We then started precision sampling and did two runs of that (2005 and again in 2011). However last year I gave in and albrect tested every single field just using a random sampling pattern so not precision sampling.

I then compared those results with the precision sampling of 2011 and to be honest there are hardly any differences with the main things. The albrect route however was a lot cheaper because we were not bothered about grid squares and creating precision spreading files.

This time after the albrect results arrived I took some better advice than last time and now have a 10 year plan which only uses readily available products that are affordable. The goal is to try to balance the soil because get your soil right means a healthier plant as far as I am concerned.

So what I would say after 12 years of phaffing around just because somebody told you something at a seminar that you paid a lot of money to attend does not mean its right for your soils. Without doubt the idea of what he says make sense but your knowledge of your soil far exceeds Kinseys knowledge of your soil. He has a well rounded view but cannot be specific to your own situation.
 
It is the different approach to analysis and what to do that is of interest surely. As Neil said there is no contract between farmer and lab. But the analysis seems combined with recomened inputs to provide many with what they want from their land and farms. However. And it is a big but are yeild increases as important as profits or cost per tonne of production.

I'm just wondering if its all its cracked up to be.
What I want to hear is testimonials from folk who have "bought the Albrecht T shirt" so to speak.

Improved yields may be one benefit, but its the bottom line that I'm interested in.
 
I know we have pm'ed but yield was not mentioned ....... So since we first albrect tested and started to follow the system, but not religiously, then our yields have got better but I think it's coincidence more than anything else as the main thing I have done is apply more N than previously as we know N locks up due to the high mag levels. So historically if we applied 220kg/ha N the plant was only taking up 150kg/ha which we only realised when we started to tissue test properly. So now I push the N a bit where we can justify it and the yield response has been good.

So the albrect test highlighted the issue but it took us a while to work out what we needed to do.
 
I'm just wondering if its all its cracked up to be.
What I want to hear is testimonials from folk who have "bought the Albrecht T shirt" so to speak.

Improved yields may be one benefit, but its the bottom line that I'm interested in.

I spoke to a German farmer at the seminar and in his first year he trialled a field following the Kinsey recommendations. He left one tramline untreated and he said there was a very marked difference later in the season. He had some local university students come out to investigate the differences. Apparently there was 30% more underground biomass in the treated plots compared to the untreated and 15% more overground biomass.

He had been using Kinsey for about 7 years and seemed very happy. His name was Max and asked a few questions (about Zinc among other things) during the three days. Nice chap.
 

T C

Member
Location
Nr Kelso
I have been dabbling with Albrecht for 5 years - had some excellent results on potatoes +30% marketable yield. Having been at the Kinsey seminar and having a long drive back has made me determined to do as he says - measure to manage on a third of the farm.
He was very short on scientific results for the programme let alone any economic analysis.
 
Having been at the Kinsey seminar and having a long drive back has made me determined to do as he says - measure to manage on a third of the farm.
He was very short on scientific results for the programme let alone any economic analysis.

Yes, I had a very similar drive home with plenty time to mull over what had been said. And I couldn't agree more with your last statement.

I just keep coming back to the same question. Albrecht is nothing new, so why isn't everyone farming this way??
 
Yes, I had a very similar drive home with plenty time to mull over what had been said. And I couldn't agree more with your last statement.

I just keep coming back to the same question. Albrecht is nothing new, so why isn't everyone farming this way??

I think one reason is because of the upfront costs. Remember how many times during his anecdotes he mentioned a client saying, "But Neal, I can't afford that!"

To be fair to him he wasn't claiming that it was economical (you're the farmer sort of thing) but maybe he should have tried to.

When talking to this German chap he said that not once did any of his neighbours come and ask him about what he was doing; he said if they had he would have been glad to discuss. You often see the same with long term no-tillers - their neighbours just think they're crazy even though they're getting amazing results. It's easy to sneer, much more difficult to ask for guidance or advice, particularly when that advice is to fundamentally change the way you farm.
 

Getnthair

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
SW Scotland
It is unfortunate that this seminar coincided with the BFF crash, I was looking forward to a discussion post-seminar of the benefits (or not) of Albrecht.

I've sampled four fields this year with the Albrecht test (against a background of regularly soil-testing every field, every second year for 40 years). What I've got at the moment are four lovely pie-charts in pretty colours - and I have had the results explained to me. The fields need some gypsum but mainly sulphate of potash - ignoring a lot of other fiddly recommendations.

My objectives are to increase the palatability of the grass, increase proteins in silage and to have some cultural effect on soil structure. After two wet summers we are also going to subsoil and/or slit the whole farm. (And in relation to compaction the iron levels in the fields correspond clearly with the wetting in each field.)

I'm keen to try something but would like to have some idea of my chances of success. Which are????
 

Knockie

Member
Location
Aberdeenshire
A quote from Albert Einstein sort of sums up my views very simply.

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

And there is no doubt that we have caused a problem or two with the way we have farmed our farm.
Cheers.
SD.
 
I'm pretty much at the same point as you Getnthair. We have tested a few fields and have results back (Although I'm waiting on recommendations from Glenside). Ca:Mg levels seem about right. Sulphur is what would appear to be my main deficiency. And yes Iron levels are through the roof on wetter ground.
 
Look guys Albrect is merely a more in-depth soil test. You can then do with the results whatever you like. When we did ours its was cheaper than precision sampling using one of the big companies who like SOIL ;).

Reason being is I scraped the precision idea because the products I am using to make my soils better cannot easily be applied using variable rate. So compost, gypsum, slag so why spend money on precision farming.
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
Look guys Albrect is merely a more in-depth soil test. You can then do with the results whatever you like. When we did ours its was cheaper than precision sampling using one of the big companies who like SOIL ;).

Reason being is I scraped the precision idea because the products I am using to make my soils better cannot easily be applied using variable rate. So compost, gypsum, slag so why spend money on precision farming.

Kinsey wouldn't agree with that

he was claiming and telling us of BIG soil changes and yield / quality shifts within 1 to 3 years

I think some of it makes a lot of sense here on my low CEC soils - maybe on clay with bigger CEC the changes are much harder (more ££) top make happen ?
 
Kinsey wouldn't agree with that

he was claiming and telling us of BIG soil changes and yield / quality shifts within 1 to 3 years

I think some of it makes a lot of sense here on my low CEC soils - maybe on clay with bigger CEC the changes are much harder (more ££) top make happen ?

Its difficult to explain what i mean without sounding rude, but its not meant that way ......

My point is that 'HE' was saying that. There's 70 million people in the UK alone let alone the world so what makes him right? If his system was so proven the worlds farming would be using his system, but its not.

I get what he says because if I didn't I would not of adopted the albrect system but just because Kinsey says this and Kinsey says that, it does not mean its right. We have to respect him for his knowledge and achievements but he has no idea about our individual soils which is my point, so all he can provide is a very basic starting point which must be developed soley for your own land using your own knowledge with reference to him at certain times.

I think if you've read his book and heard him speak, then thats you and Kinsey done because the rest of it is between you and your own soil. Even if he spent a day with you on your own farm thats great but you've been there 35 years +. He cannot possibly know about all the little issues and why one field in a block of land yields different to another over the hedge.

If you have a father and son team farming together then generally theres a good 60 years experience of the land that can be sat round the kitchen table. Thats far more beneficial knowledge which combined with a bit of Kinsey info from his book, than getting him to visit for the day. Combine that with some upto date soil analysis, some tissue sample results and your own agronomist then thats as good as it gets for me .......

Albrect has shown me I need gypsum, slag and compost. Job done which combined with tissue analysis and some trace elements where required is as good as it gets. Seed breeders are holding yields back more than soils.
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
I'm not saying he is right or wrong but everyone who went will tell you he was not short on success stories - in most case within 3 years of setting out

He has nothing to sell other than lab services and openly admitted that other labs provide the same service

What is certain is that low CEC soils will be much easier to change fast than high CEC

non of this is conjecture really, its all based on sound science unlike a some areas of the biological stuff where a bit of faith is required

a lot of farmers old or young don't really know what their soils are made up other than in very basic terms - me for one (my dad included) have a MUCH better idea of how to achieve the balance we need now
 

Old Spot

Member
Location
Glos
I get where you are coming from, so long as you are happy with your yields and profit then great.
No amount of reconnaisance is wasted. If by trying to balance soils (in whatever way) we actually spend less on fert etc it must be a good thing. I like to understand the theory then see what I can put into practice.
It would be good to hear soil/yield/profit improvement ideas from anyone.
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
I get where you are coming from, so long as you are happy with your yields and profit then great.
No amount of reconnaisance is wasted. If by trying to balance soils (in whatever way) we actually spend less on fert etc it must be a good thing. I like to understand the theory then see what I can put into practice.
It would be good to hear soil/yield/profit improvement ideas from anyone.



I reckon the economics of it are going to change massively depending on the CEC of your soil on the big soils it's going to be hard to justify spending what you need (if not impossible) on light stuff I think the case is much more appealing ?
 

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