All in the head...

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
The first two are old wives tales. It’s what’s in the trough that brings their jaw forward, that’s why the shearling men have a constant battle with the mouths going over. What’s in the trough will build more muscle than slopes. The pre-emptive jab just sounds like shocking management. I do know of plenty who feed from birth. And yes they pull a lot of stunts.

We feed them, we have to for our market. I admire the men in a big enough way to be able to and are prepared to swim against the tide.

Feed at the top of a steep hill and the sheep have to climb up to the troughs, keeping them fitter/firmer.

I did hear of one Aberdeenshire flock that were feeding every two hours, with a set of troughs in 4 corners of the field. They were apparently fed in whichever set of troughs were furthest from where they were lieing. Could hardly get into their lamb pen at Kelso every year....
 

andybk

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Mendips Somerset
Feed at the top of a steep hill and the sheep have to climb up to the troughs, keeping them fitter/firmer.

I did hear of one Aberdeenshire flock that were feeding every two hours, with a set of troughs in 4 corners of the field. They were apparently fed in whichever set of troughs were furthest from where they were lieing. Could hardly get into their lamb pen at Kelso every year....
if as much effort went into breeding the genetics that goes into hoodwinking the buyers , the flock would be outstanding .I just despair at the whole system
 

Ysgythan

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Ammanford
Feed at the top of a steep hill and the sheep have to climb up to the troughs, keeping them fitter/firmer.

no, not having it. Find me the flock with the feed bucket just out of reach on a treadmill and I’ll associate moving to food with bodybuilding. Otherwise is an old wives tale.
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
hoodwinking? Do you think those buyers think they’ve been on “nobbut but grass”

No, but they were from Aberdeen, so must be better. I was once told that the reason for sheep doing better there was that they had longer days than us, so spent longer grazing....?

That flock dispersed a few years later, selling out at big money and allegedly spreading CLA far and wide.?
 

Ysgythan

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Ammanford
No, but they were from Aberdeen, so must be better. I was once told that the reason for sheep doing better there was that they had longer days than us, so spent longer grazing....?

That flock dispersed a few years later, selling out at big money and allegedly spreading CLA far and wide.?

We’ve had a few stock tups from up there. They take a bit of managing initially, but then they’re fine.
 

Agrivator

Member
I've never read such drivel. I might as well have gone out and bought the Observer.

A beast’s head is by far and away its most important point.

1. It identifies its breed or cross.

2. It tells a stockman what line it is likely to be from.

3. It gives a strong indication regarding its likely character - kind or aggressive.

4. It provides an accurate measure of its state of health.

5. It provides, in sheep at least, a very accurate measure of its nutritional status.

6. It gives some indication of the likely production traits- meat versus milk.

Any of you who meets a human for the first time, what is the first thing you use to sum them up? Apart from the shoes he or she is wearing.
 

Ysgythan

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Ammanford
Do you really think thats acceptable ? bearing in mind you know how to look after them .I dont think selling into a commercial market it is ,no matter what the figures or the heads like .

I wouldn’t be so dismissive of my potential customers. Some of them will ask what we feed after buying, the vast majority won’t. It doesn’t matter though as they’re not fed ad lib and they do graze.
 

andybk

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Mendips Somerset
I wouldn’t be so dismissive of my potential customers. Some of them will ask what we feed after buying, the vast majority won’t. It doesn’t matter though as they’re not fed ad lib and they do graze.
im not talking about you personally just a general comment ,
most commercial customers accept that rams will be fed to some degree maybe a few months pre sale , maybe longer with ram lambs , after all its a shop window for your flock i get that , your buyers ,will like to know so they can bring them down themselves , What i find unacceptable is ad lib concentrate feeding , so rumen doesnt get developed properly and even burned with concentrate acidity and breeders finding ever more ingenious ways of getting even more into them , only using pasture as a form of exercise Be a different matter if it was indoor pigs or poultry , .
There is a huge hole in selling rams in finding natural foraging ability and functionality in a commercial situation ,feeding vast amounts of concentrate to make up for that deficiency isnt helping any breeder (past the sale ring) let alone the end market , i have bought lots of rams both here and from france all look good and have good growth records all been on a good diet no doubt , But the type of ram that can turn fescue bent and yorkshire fog with some rye and clover (found on many sheep farms) into a easy 40kg lamb off a suffolk mule is a whole different matter .
 
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Ysgythan

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Ammanford
im not talking about you personally just a general comment ,
most commercial customers accept that rams will be fed to some degree maybe a few months pre sale , maybe longer with ram lambs , after all its a shop window for your flock i get that , What i find unacceptable is ad lib concentrate feeding , so rumen doesnt get developed properly and even burned with concentrate acidity and finding ever more ingenious ways of getting even more into them , only using pasture as a form of exercise Be a different matter if it was indoor pigs or poultry , .
There is a huge hole in selling rams in finding natural foraging ability and functionality in a commercial situation ,feeding vast amounts of concentrate to make up for that deficiency isnt helping any breeder (past the sale ring) let alone the end market , i have bought lots of rams both here and from france all look good and have good growth records all been on a good diet no doubt , But the type of ram that can turn fescue bent and yorkshire fog with some rye and clover (found on many sheep farms) into a easy 40kg lamb off a suffolk mule is a whole different matter .

I don’t think moderate feeding and foraging ability or functionality are necessarily antithetical. @ford4000 can attest to the snow survival skills of at least one ram I sold in 2012.
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
I've never read such drivel. I might as well have gone out and bought the Observer.

A beast’s head is by far and away its most important point.

1. It identifies its breed or cross.

2. It tells a stockman what line it is likely to be from.

3. It gives a strong indication regarding its likely character - kind or aggressive.

4. It provides an accurate measure of its state of health.

5. It provides, in sheep at least, a very accurate measure of its nutritional status.

6. It gives some indication of the likely production traits- meat versus milk.

Any of you who meets a human for the first time, what is the first thing you use to sum them up? Apart from the shoes he or she is wearing.

The first thing I use is whether they are talking complete and utter ballcocks.
 

Agrivator

Member
The first thing I use is whether they are talking complete and utter ballcocks.

Going back to the opening post, can you explain why you think that heads are not a vital part of an animal's phenotype?

Of the points I listed above, what would you regard as bollox?

Just to recap, these were:

A beast’s head is by far and away its most important point.

1. It identifies its breed or cross.

2. It tells a stockman what line it is likely to be from.

3. It gives a strong indication regarding its likely character - kind or aggressive.

4. It provides an accurate measure of its state of health.

5. It provides, in sheep at least, a very accurate measure of its nutritional status.

6. It gives some indication of the likely production traits- meat versus milk.
 

andybk

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Mendips Somerset
the judge in action , interesting head / or not on this hereford in australia
1592748575228.png
 

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