Alternative to Thiram

[gatewood]

Plenty of seed packages come with red coated seeds, this substance is called "thiram" and it is a pretty effective fungicide and bactericide (even if germinated in somewhat damp environments, those seeds won't develop cobwebs or bacterial infections or whatnot).

I've been wanting to replicate a similar, DIY coating, so as to protect my own seeds without much trouble and expense. I've had some success with ashes and potassium soaps, but the former is a desiccant and soaks a lot of water and the latter doesn't quite protect them from bacteria.

Anyone wishing to share some secret methods/recipes/formulas?

 

[teslacoils]

Think thiram is now banned.

 

[CORK]

Think thiram is now banned.

Yep, it is. It was cheap but also good at giving you a rash.

 

[teslacoils]

How about a solution from steeped tobacco leaves?

 

[gatewood]

Think thiram is now banned.

Not yet where I live.

I know its toxic (I think they banned it because birds and livestock get very sick from unwanted ingestion of the treated seeds), that's why I want to make my own formula (or replicate someone elses).

How about a solution from steeped tobacco leaves?

How is that exactly?

 

[Bogweevil]

Yes, thiram banned in EU since 30 Jan 2019, pity, good stuff, have to up seed rate for early peas considerably to make up for very high field factor.

No direct replacement I can find - in the USA some biological seed treatments offered - here soon I hope:

Just to cheer everyone up metalaxyl is for the chop soon too - another very useful seed dressing; Apron and Wakil.

Sadly I can think of no plausible mode of action for soap or ashes - interested to know if you find success.

 

[teslacoils]

Not yet where I live.

I know its toxic (I think they banned it because birds and livestock get very sick from unwanted ingestion of the treated seeds), that's why I want to make my own formula (or replicate someone elses).

How is that exactly?

Nicotine in the tobacco is a commonly used "organic" pesticide. Typically soak in water, then strain. Add a bit of washing up liquid and spray on crop leaves to get rid of pests.

To reduce the hassle, they synthesized it and put it in little bottles and commercialised it.....then banned it.

 

[gatewood]

Yes, thiram banned in EU since 30 Jan 2019, pity, good stuff, have to up seed rate for early peas considerably to make up for very high field factor.

No direct replacement I can find - in the USA some biological seed treatments offered - here soon I hope:

Just to cheer everyone up metalaxyl is for the chop soon too - another very useful seed dressing; Apron and Wakil.

Sadly I can think of no plausible mode of action for soap or ashes - interested to know if you find success.

The alkali and alkaline carbonates in ashes and potassium soaps seem to be able kill fungi pretty well... bacteria, not so much. I've also used chlorinated water and seems to help when you apply it, but it has no staying power (also, once the seedling is infected, pesticides won't help that much, except preventing them from getting even sicker).

However, I've recently made some experiments with these kinds of soaps:

powder detergent - Google Search

And they kill fungi really, really well so far (though it seems to stunt seed germination). It also destroys red spiders and their webs no problem.

Nicotine in the tobacco is a commonly used "organic" pesticide. Typically soak in water, then strain. Add a bit of washing up liquid and spray on crop leaves to get rid of pests.

To reduce the hassle, they synthesized it and put it in little bottles and commercialised it.....then banned it.

Well that's fortunate, I've got 3 big tobacco plants

Do you know if its just the nicotine? Or is it some special formula?

 

[teslacoils]

The alkali and alkaline carbonates in ashes and potassium soaps seem to be able kill fungi pretty well... bacteria, not so much. I've also used chlorinated water and seems to help when you apply it, but it has no staying power (also, once the seedling is infected, pesticides won't help that much, except preventing them from getting even sicker).

However, I've recently made some experiments with these kinds of soaps:

powder detergent - Google Search

And they kill fungi really, really well so far (though it seems to stunt seed germination). It also destroys red spiders and their webs no problem.


Well that's fortunate, I've got 3 big tobacco plants

Do you know if its just the nicotine? Or is it some special formula?

Google is your friend. I haven't used actual tabacco plant leaf.

 

[gatewood]

Google is your friend. I haven't used actual tabacco plant leaf.

Yes, already checked it out.

If anyone reading this is also interested, nicotine is, fortunately, very water soluble and it'll be easily extracted from the tobacco's leaves using just hot water (it'll also dissolve other contaminants, but that's most certainly not an issue in this case), in contrast with the lipid soluble compounds of other plants.

"Standard textbooks, databases, and safety sheets consistently state that the lethal dose for adults is 60 mg or less (30–60 mg), leading to safety warnings that ingestion of five cigarettes or 10 ml of a dilute nicotine-containing solution could kill an adult."

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

That's quite poisonous (read somewhere, that cigarette companies extract a lot of nicotine from the tobacco). Utmost care must be practiced when handling concentrated nicotine, as it quickly absorbs through the skin! (guess that may be why, the pesticide was banned).

 

[Bogweevil]

You are unlikely to harm yourself using a decoction of tobacco foliage. Used to be old British tradition to collect fag ends to make insecticide - when you find yourself fishing them out of urinals you know you might be taking crop protection a little too far..

We used to buy nicotine concentrate in one gallon cans - it only works well in warm humid conditions and loses activity in an hours or so, so best in greenhouses in UK, but it is nasty stuff, a slight niff and you feel dizzy and nauseous. Better than nicotine shards though, these nicotine impregnated strips of flammable cloth are placed at intervals though greenhouse and set alight, starting at the one furthest from the door. Only they keep going out so holding your breath you have to go back and relight them - impossible not to get gassed.

Synthetic nicotine analogues are very stable and very safe for humans, half life over a year, which has led to withdrawal in Europe except in greenhouses, imadicloprid, or not so safe for humans as thought, Thiacloprid, so that too has been withdrawn, leaving just Acetamiprid; as far we know safe to people and bees and very useful for fruit, greenhouse and vegetable crops.

 

[gatewood]

You are unlikely to harm yourself using a decoction of tobacco foliage. Used to be old British tradition to collect fag ends to make insecticide - when you find yourself fishing them out of urinals you know you might be taking crop protection a little too far..

We used to buy nicotine concentrate in one gallon cans - it only works well in warm humid conditions and loses activity in an hours or so, so best in greenhouses in UK, but it is nasty stuff, a slight niff and you feel dizzy and nauseous. Better than nicotine shards though, these nicotine impregnated strips of flammable cloth are placed at intervals though greenhouse and set alight, starting at the one furthest from the door. Only they keep going out so holding your breath you have to go back and relight them - impossible not to get gassed.

Synthetic nicotine analogues are very stable and very safe for humans, half life over a year, which has led to withdrawal in Europe except in greenhouses, imadicloprid, or not so safe for humans as thought, Thiacloprid, so that too has been withdrawn, leaving just Acetamiprid; as far we know safe to people and bees and very useful for fruit, greenhouse and vegetable crops.

Well you know a lot more than I suspected. Thanks for the input