Another walker trampled

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
before we went mad and restarted our dairy, we had a huge problem with walkers (1?) leaving gates open earlty in the mornings, I bought 5 longhorn cows with calves , dosey old things,liked nothing better than a good scratch, solved the prombem pretty well overnight. now if walkers are not on a footpath, I carefully explain that tony blair brought in the right to roam act, but in England I am required to tell them they are not on the footpath and show them where it is, and apologise for having to do so, that usually stumps then. on a more serious note we do not let the dairy bull out with cows/hfrs where there is a path, we have been approached by a neighbour (non farmer} to not put a bull in the field by his house, in case his visitors wanted to walk through it. on the trampling side it could happen to anyone, cattle are animals, and can react unexpectedly.
 

dannewhouse

Member
Location
huddersfield
i thought you weren't alod to turn a bull of a known dairy breed out any way above a certain age? probably less than 24 months?

i know beef bulls have to be either with cows or with other bulls from memory? basically not on their own?
 

Ffermer Bach

Member
Livestock Farmer
'it was almost all rough handling before they got here. Learned behaviour versus genetics?'


Maybe it's like psychopathy in humans, you are born with it, but the negative aspects are only triggered if you have an abusive upbringing.
I disagree, why do they try to breed lims that are quieter if it is not genetic, why are cart horses "bomb" proof, oh maybe because If I was breeding horses to pull my cart or my plough, I would want slow, twp, plodding horses, which I could breed for
 
I disagree, why do they try to breed lims that are quieter if it is not genetic, why are cart horses "bomb" proof, oh maybe because If I was breeding horses to pull my cart or my plough, I would want slow, twp, plodding horses, which I could breed for


The point is that in humans some people are born with certain brain abnormalities that result in psychopathy but that the negative aspects aren't triggered without an abusive upbringing.

In other words there's lots of people going about who are technically psychopaths but who do not, and will never, exhibit the negative aspects of psychopathy because in their formative years they were not abused. You wouldn't know they are psychopaths unless you scanned their brains.

I don't see why the same thing can't apply to cattle.

In general terms all domestic animals have been bred to be docile to a greater or lesser extent. But you still get the odd nutter.
 

puppet

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
sw scotland
I think psychopathy is a clinical diagnosis, not based on a scan. Plenty chief execs of multinational companies have psychopathic traits but have not had an abusive upbringing.....

unless you count public schooling from age 8.
 

milkloss

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
East Sussex
The point is that in humans some people are born with certain brain abnormalities that result in psychopathy but that the negative aspects aren't triggered without an abusive upbringing.

In other words there's lots of people going about who are technically psychopaths but who do not, and will never, exhibit the negative aspects of psychopathy because in their formative years they were not abused. You wouldn't know they are psychopaths unless you scanned their brains.

I don't see why the same thing can't apply to cattle.

In general terms all domestic animals have been bred to be docile to a greater or lesser extent. But you still get the odd nutter.

I think you’ve been watching too many American box sets on telly tbh. I don’t think cattle are that complicated.
 
I think psychopathy is a clinical diagnosis, not based on a scan. Plenty chief execs of multinational companies have psychopathic traits but have not had an abusive upbringing.....

unless you count public schooling from age 8.

It's a clinical diagnosis but brain scans highlight an abnormality in the brains of those diagnosed as psychopaths. And the same abnormality is observed in violent psychopaths and non violent psychopaths.

The point is that the psychopaths who exhibit violent tendencies have had abusive childhoods. The psychopaths who don't exhibit violent tendencies have had normal childhoods.
 
If you don't exhibit violent tendencies are you a psychopath? Are there nice, cuddly psychopaths who have been well brought up?
At a guess, I'd wager that there are a fair number of psychotic people at large in Society. No, there won't be a lot of cuddly one's, but a lot will never be serial killers, and thus will pass under the radar.
 
how do you factor in a cow that has been perfect for 9 calvings and then on the 10th normmall only if its a bad calving they get a bit frisky, should you cull the cow on the slight chance or keep it?
those that say cull some would end up with no cows!
What, at that age it's a no brainer. She's already given you 10 calves and has turned a bit tasty,

Automatic ta ta .
 

puppet

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
sw scotland
At a guess, I'd wager that there are a fair number of psychotic people at large in Society. No, there won't be a lot of cuddly one's, but a lot will never be serial killers, and thus will pass under the radar.
Psychotic is different and yes, 99% are in the community rather than 'at large' and lots will be cuddly people. Psychopaths however, do impulsive things with no thought for the consequences, show no remorse and do not relate to how others might feel about the actions. They do the same again and again, tell lies which they expect you to believe and are much more likely to punch you and end up with a string of convictions. They are cunning too so if you think you can persuade them in an argument then you will lose.
 

egbert

Member
Livestock Farmer
I disagree, why do they try to breed lims that are quieter if it is not genetic, why are cart horses "bomb" proof, oh maybe because If I was breeding horses to pull my cart or my plough, I would want slow, twp, plodding horses, which I could breed for

That was what i was illustrating.
The family of cows were all bad initially, almost certainly as a result of rough handling.
If they hadn't hefted so well, and started producing so well, they'd have all been 'deselcted'
With patience -and I have written books on handling difficult hill cattle and how their hairy little noggins work- we got them mostly very quiet.
Their first 2 crops had all learned such bad habits, we killed the lot, along with the worst couple of adults.
Subsequent crops became increasingly quiet, as their dams quietened down.

It followed that while there was a propensity for 'difficult' behaviour in them, it could be masked and overcome with careful handling.
There is still the odd wildcard* thrown up in the damline, despite careful sire selection, and continuing docility training.
(*I fix this by eating them....the ultimate stimulus to improved behaviour!).

I've done the same with bulls, including a youngster from a herd whose genetics I wanted.
His mother was a vicious cow, and watched strangers stood stockstill from the back of the group, which were pawing the ground when approached.
The bull calf and his cohorts were like wild animals when they arrived with me.
The 2 females and the bull I've retained are now each as dopey as anything I own. The bull is very popular on the hire circuit, he is so easy to live with. I haven't kept any of his heifers myself- i'm wanting a particular bull calf from him- but those who've used him have.
You would never guess they were the same animals, and although the breeder is a first rate judge of stock, tip top hill farmer, and a man who has my absolute respect and fondness....it is the handling here which has fixed the problem.

Don't know if the same works with Limos....never had much to do with em
 

Stewart Setter

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Suffolk, UK
I think with all this there needs to be some common sense.. I enjoy walking on the field paths and relish being marginally closer to cows, sheep etc.. but would not let my dog off lead, I would not let my children go running around the field or getting too close. When cows have calves, I would not even go into the field in the first place.

As a volunteer farm worker, I've seen first hand what can happen with cows/bulls.. One bull has sent me airborne and over the fence!! I think it's right to have public foot paths but I also think the public should use those paths at their own risk and use some bloody common sense.
 

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