Anyone at Logie Durno sale?

easyram1

Member
Location
North Shropshire
This is exactly what Prof John Robinson was saying some 30+ years ago. What he actually was saying is that the genetics of a specific sheep in terms of growth rates prolificacy etc is effected very strongly by what happens to that sheep in its first 14 days of existence as an embryo. I am no scientist so I have no idea why etc. What I do know was that John was a total genius who had a massive effect on the sheep industry through his work on reproduction and nutrition firstly at the Rowett Research Institute and then at SRUC
 

primmiemoo

Member
Location
Devon
But is that talking about a permenant switching or temporary effect of feed availability?

Edit: the phrase "some effects crossing generations " would imply it can be permenant?


It's something called epigenetics. Quite a recent discovery and an emerging field in the study of living things, apparently.

The bits I've been able to understand - which is very, very little :oops: - is that the potential of the ewe lamb that's been marked as a keeper started with her grand dam, and she herself is carrying the potential for every lamb she'll ever have, and every lamb the females in her line ever have.

It's how the environment she encounters in utero and in the rest of her lifetime interacts with that potential that determines how well it's expressed in the individual sheep in it's lifetime, and also how it's inherited along the bloodline passed on by that sheep. :scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:(y) ?

It isn't exactly permanent - Genes can be switched on or off in the next generation depending on the environment experienced by the current generation - but it's there.


[A-a-a-nd rest... And read the books again until it sinks in, primmie.]
 

Top Tip.

Member
Location
highland
Do you have access to lots of winter grass? Plenty of sheep wintered on swedes in upland Wales, where they would have similar rainfall. Innovis’s place would be one, in between the wind turbines.
No i don’t have acces to winter grass,we can be frozen or snow covered for months at a time,I do have sheep which can cope with the conditions. I think I should invite you up to the west coast as you quite obviously haven’t been there when you can compare it with upland Wales :) completely different environments.
 

andybk

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Mendips Somerset
Went to top up the calf creep feeders today and the tups I bought as forage reared were all in having a good feed.Seemed to know what a feeder was for!!!

dont worry about that , you will know for sure next march (if they last that long , lol ) , only time you can judge any new ram is his first shearing and has lambs on the ground .
How the breeder treated him as a lamb is the critical time .Some will feed hard for 18 months , some last few weeks before sale , big difference
 
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sheepwise

Member
Location
SW Scotland
dont worry about that , you will know for sure next march , only time you can judge any new ram is his first shearing and has lambs on the ground .
How the breeder treated him as a lamb is the critical time .Some will feed hard for 18 months , some last few weeks before sale , big difference
Bought these last year and the year before as forage reared and well pleased with the lambs off them.They have had nothing but grass since being here so was a bit surprised that they seemed to know pretty quickly what the feeder was for.
 

andybk

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Mendips Somerset
Bought these last year and the year before as forage reared and well pleased with the lambs off them.They have had nothing but grass since being here so was a bit surprised that they seemed to know pretty quickly what the feeder was for.

yea they will be ok , most ram breeders this year are having to feed something after a very hard winter of wet then cold and a drought summer , or you boys wont buy them .
shows importance of knowing and trusting your breeder , sounds like you have a good one , stick with him .
 

Macsky

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Highland
How the breeder treated him as a lamb is the critical time .Some will feed hard for 18 months , some last few weeks before sale , big difference

Couldn’t agree more, the whole exclusively grass fed thing might suit more milder climes in the south, but further north, and west, it just isn’t possible. You need your sheep to know what a feed bag is in the middle of a wet and windy winter!

Up here you want your tups (usually bought as 2 shear if you’re after Hill Cheviots) grown slowly and steadily, definitely not spoilt, all the way through (they can stand still for a while but not go backwards) and then get a bit of hard feed in them in the last 6 weeks to give them a bit of backup and put a wee polish on them for the sale, sheep treated like this will be fit for plenty work and last a long time.
 
Do you not find that if for any reason you did not have the the roots available that they really struggle as this has been my experience with hogs wintered on roots,the following year as gimmers they did badly when they were not on the root diet,I am not alone in this as most hill farmers up here will refuse to let their hogs be turnip wintered just because of how badly they do after it. Roots are fine for fattening,but you obviously make them work for you in the breeding situation.
It's quite interesting when we took the terminal sire breeds home from winter keep to go onto turnips we found they went back and didn't really ever catch up with the weather. The logies and logie blues were left on winter grazing the whole way and came out miles ahead in condition at shearing time end of may. If we could find enough winter grazing they would all stay at grass. Turnips is a back up plan for us when we run out of grass, ewes take priority and get grass over tup Hoggs. Biggest reason rams were leaner this year was because grass burnt off and fly's ate their heads from fighting daily. Genetics are the improved yearly, and I'm sure by shearing next year they will be the same adult size they would have been on a good year.
 

Top Tip.

Member
Location
highland
It's quite interesting when we took the terminal sire breeds home from winter keep to go onto turnips we found they went back and didn't really ever catch up with the weather. The logies and logie blues were left on winter grazing the whole way and came out miles ahead in condition at shearing time end of may. If we could find enough winter grazing they would all stay at grass. Turnips is a back up plan for us when we run out of grass, ewes take priority and get grass over tup Hoggs. Biggest reason rams were leaner this year was because grass burnt off and fly's ate their heads from fighting daily. Genetics are the improved yearly, and I'm sure by shearing next year they will be the same adult size they would have been on a good year.
Just a thought and I don’t know if it breaks your rules but a pound a head of sugar beet pulp would still have been ‘forage’ technically and would have helped them tremendously.
 
Just a thought and I don’t know if it breaks your rules but a pound a head of sugar beet pulp would still have been ‘forage’ technically and would have helped them tremendously.
Yeah you are probably right! We just have not needed it in the past, especially when it's only our stock in that sale... Nobody to fight with for size so just save the money and run them hard. The easiest answer would of been shift them to a different farm a month pre sale with clean younger grass and no trees meaning less fly's and they would of put on a nice sale condition! It all shows how important it is to select a positive fat ebv... All rams in the same situation, some rolling in fat, others leaner... The harder the weather and more intensive the grazing actually helps a lot to focus the mind on what's important in sheep and what makes money and thrives!
 

andybk

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Mendips Somerset
[QUOTE="Logie Durno sheep, post: 5407302, member: 2537"]It's quite interesting when we took the terminal sire breeds home from winter keep to go onto turnips we found they went back and didn't really ever catch up with the weather. The logies and logie blues were left on winter grazing the whole way and came out miles ahead in condition at shearing time end of may. If we could find enough winter grazing they would all stay at grass. Turnips is a back up plan for us when we run out of grass, ewes take priority and get grass over tup Hoggs. Biggest reason rams were leaner this year was because grass burnt off and fly's ate their heads from fighting daily. Genetics are the improved yearly, and I'm sure by shearing next year they will be the same adult size they would have been on a good year.[/QUOTE]

Maybe big change in rumen flora , had similar in some ewe hoggs we fed stock feed spuds to for about a month on ssi ground , couldnt work it out they were in very good nick coming off , but a month back on grass , lost half to a condition score . then the drought started .
 
Yeah that's right, the stomach adapts and works with what it's got to work with. We have tried lots of different ideas from red clover, kale, turnips etc etc. We get best results just keeping grass young and rotating all the time. That's why the logies looked so well at shearing, born and bred just rotating round grass as a breed. Anything that didn't react well to this system ends up looking rubbish so will be killed... People are running more sheep per labour unit all the time so stock kind of have to adapt and look after themselves on a modern sheep farm I think
 

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