Anyone for a Brexit ?

Ley253

Member
Location
Bath
The Marshall plan, at first demanded all German industry to be destroyed, and the population to be reduced to an agricultural subsistence level. I am not aware of the uk receiving any help, but, if it did, it would all, and more besides, have been swallowed up in the war debt repayments that America mercilessly insisted on being repaid in full.
 

Goweresque

Member
Location
North Wilts
There never was any danger than Germany would beat Russia - Hitler himself was later to say that, had he known the true extent of Russian military strength (200 divisions in 1941), he would never have invaded.

Just as, in reality, the Japanese were never going to win the war in the East - hence Yamamoto's well-known quote: "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."

No one said so at the time in a handy quote, but it applied equally to 'Barbarossa'.
I disagree. There was every chance, had Hitler allowed his generals to prosecute the war without constantly interfering, thinking himself to be a strategic genius. It was a very close run thing anyway in 1941 - Stalin was preparing to evacuate Moscow, but his Siberian troops arrived just in time from the East to hold the Germans at the gates of Moscow. Had Moscow fallen, I think Stalin would have fallen too.
 

Goweresque

Member
Location
North Wilts
The Marshall plan, at first demanded all German industry to be destroyed, and the population to be reduced to an agricultural subsistence level. I am not aware of the uk receiving any help, but, if it did, it would all, and more besides, have been swallowed up in the war debt repayments that America mercilessly insisted on being repaid in full.
The UK was the biggest single recipient of Marshall Aid:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan#Expenditures
 

stewart

Member
Location
Bay of Plenty NZ
The Marshall plan, at first demanded all German industry to be destroyed, and the population to be reduced to an agricultural subsistence level. I am not aware of the uk receiving any help, but, if it did, it would all, and more besides, have been swallowed up in the war debt repayments that America mercilessly insisted on being repaid in full.
The aim of the Marshall Plan was to rebuild Europe and stop it turning towards communism, it is highly unlikely that it would demand the population be reduced to subsistence level.

The UK was the biggest recipient of aid under the Plan.
 

Ley253

Member
Location
Bath
The original plan was to reduce Germany to little more than a fuedal system. She was to be denied any industry, so that she could never start another war. That policy was an American revenge plan. which rapidly changed when America noticed who would be between them and Russia in Europe. Then the free, prosperous Europe was needed to act as an opposite to soviet tyranny. One reason why the uk may have miss spent its aid, could have been down to the labour government, but I think most of it went straight back as war debt repayments.
Another thing people forget is that America probably prolonged the war by several months with its "unconditional surrender" requirement.If you want a man to fight his hardest, give him no other options!
 

Hilly

Member
I disagree. There was every chance, had Hitler allowed his generals to prosecute the war without constantly interfering, thinking himself to be a strategic genius. It was a very close run thing anyway in 1941 - Stalin was preparing to evacuate Moscow, but his Siberian troops arrived just in time from the East to hold the Germans at the gates of Moscow. Had Moscow fallen, I think Stalin would have fallen too.
Stalin was lucky, what saved him was quite simple, THE WEATHER !
 

Walterp

Member
Location
Pembrokeshire
I disagree. There was every chance, had Hitler allowed his generals to prosecute the war without constantly interfering, thinking himself to be a strategic genius. It was a very close run thing anyway in 1941 - Stalin was preparing to evacuate Moscow, but his Siberian troops arrived just in time from the East to hold the Germans at the gates of Moscow. Had Moscow fallen, I think Stalin would have fallen too.
We'll never know.

I was very taken with Hitler's response when he learned the true extent of Russian strength, rather than the faulty intelligence upon which he had relied in planning 'Barbarossa.' If he knew then that he had made a grievous error that would lose him the war, I'd go with that.

My understanding is that the saving of Moscow was not the saving of Russia, in that Russia's strength then (and now) has always been its depth of defence - a fact we tend to forget when we consider whether Ukraine should, or ever can be, anything but a buffer state and a Russian sphere of influence.

On Stalin's survival, the evidence is (according to Rupert Furbag Montefiore) that if Stalin managed to survive the initial invasion shock, he was by default Russia's only leader. He was never likely to be replaced.
 
Michael Heseltine remains a bit of a mystery: I was looking forward to reading his autobiography but I was deeply, deeply, disappointed (even though he was, of course, a Swansea boy).

Even on his own account, he was a chancer who over-borrowed, and deserved to go bust. He nearly did so, narrowly avoiding bankruptcy by negotiating a last-minute bank loan.

Interestingly, he dabbled in early versions of buy to lets and property speculation, being saved by inflation.

I am, looking back, not surprised that he was viewed with suspicion by the Conservative leadership of the time - he was a spiv.
Quite a few tory big beasts were welsh to my initial surprise.
 
The original plan was to reduce Germany to little more than a fuedal system. She was to be denied any industry, so that she could never start another war. That policy was an American revenge plan. which rapidly changed when America noticed who would be between them and Russia in Europe. Then the free, prosperous Europe was needed to act as an opposite to soviet tyranny. One reason why the uk may have miss spent its aid, could have been down to the labour government, but I think most of it went straight back as war debt repayments.
Another thing people forget is that America probably prolonged the war by several months with its "unconditional surrender" requirement.If you want a man to fight his hardest, give him no other options!
Always good to blame Labour!
 
We'll never know.

I was very taken with Hitler's response when he learned the true extent of Russian strength, rather than the faulty intelligence upon which he had relied in planning 'Barbarossa.' If he knew then that he had made a grievous error that would lose him the war, I'd go with that.

My understanding is that the saving of Moscow was not the saving of Russia, in that Russia's strength then (and now) has always been its depth of defence - a fact we tend to forget when we consider whether Ukraine should, or ever can be, anything but a buffer state and a Russian sphere of influence.

On Stalin's survival, the evidence is (according to Rupert Furbag Montefiore) that if Stalin managed to survive the initial invasion shock, he was by default Russia's only leader. He was never likely to be replaced.
You mean Simon Sebag Montefiore?

Everyone read Stalingrad by Anthony Beevor?
 

Brisel

Member
Location
Dorset
The Bomb would have done for Hitler, if he hadn't been stopped earlier. Unless he had got there first!
He nearly did - part of the rush across Europe by the Allies was to grab the Atomic scientists before the Russians did. The Cold War started long before 1945.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nuclear_weapon_project

Getting back on topic, isn't an interdependent Europe a good thing to prevent something like this happening ever again? Together we stand, divided we fall. It might not require a Federal Sates of Europe but a big trade alliance certainly helps. Make money, not war...
 

RobFZS

Member
He nearly did - part of the rush across Europe by the Allies was to grab the Atomic scientists before the Russians did. The Cold War started long before 1945.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nuclear_weapon_project

Getting back on topic, isn't an interdependent Europe a good thing to prevent something like this happening ever again? Together we stand, divided we fall. It might not require a Federal Sates of Europe but a big trade alliance certainly helps. Make money, not war...
Trade alliance is what everyone wants, not this federal eu state
 

Muck Spreader

Member
Location
Limousin
No problems???

Payments for 2013 are materially affected by error. The ECA therefore gives an adverse opinion on their legality
and regularity.
For the statement of assurance, please refer to Chapter 1 of the 2013 annual report.
Page 4 of the report you posted
The document is an audit summary and as such identifies and recommends improvements in procedures. There will allays be a percentage of error, if they came back with zero errors one would question the competency of the auditors. There is nothing about endemic fraud or refusing to sign anything off.
 

Muck Spreader

Member
Location
Limousin
Trade alliance is what everyone wants, not this federal eu state
Indeed that's what we all want, until for example the French or German government puts a subsidy into an industry that the UK doesn't and sells it's product cheaper and all hell kicks off. The UK and any other country not subsiding the industry then demands an EU law to stop it happening again. Replicate the scenario thousands of times in all different areas and you end up with a federal state unfortunately.
 

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