Anyone regret moving to no-till?

[Brisel]

Why would you plough heavy land in January? I think you know quite well enough that i am describing a well planned and executed operation!

OSR & second wheat compared to pulses and linseed are high margin, sugar beet also plays a useful role even on boulder clay. Point is as i suspect you are very aware that high input establishment done very well will consistently year after year return a consistently higher return

People do. You're right - heavy land would be best ploughed/pressed in Sept/Oct then sprayed off in March with the seed stiched straight into a decent frost mould. You talk about high margin - gross or net? I work towards net margin per tonne not gross margin/ha. Sustainability etc etc. I've done heavy land high input/high output cropping based on an Excel spreadsheet that said wheat/wheat/osr was the best. It resulted in multi resistant blackgrass and ever declining yields.

 

[Chalky]

Point is as i suspect you are very aware that high input establishment done very well will consistently year after year return a consistently higher return

I think this is quite a telling point.

It 'seems' through counterpoint argument that many adopters of DD are knocking everyone else to prove their own decision is correct and has far higher merit.

I am completely open minded on the subject-we strip till, min till, plough & combi and plough for spring crops. But our cropping to a greater or lesser extent means we must be flexible due to roots, vining peas etc. Our kit is flexible without being too extravagent-its old & s/h!

Have DD'd with the Dale-would like a JD 750 for opportunist DDing-but at what cost?

If we farmed combinables only, thin soils & a relatively modest yield expectation, I would have been DDing years ago. But we dont.

Heavy land is a great example of the problem of falling between two stools. Move the land & expense begins-so you aim for perfection to guarantee best chance of yield & nett margin. Don't move the soil & you have already reduced the necessity of a top yield-but are you loosing more O/P than gaining in savings? The secret is repeatability & reliability I think.

Plus, you don't get many prizes for disasters even if you have saved £50/acre....

 

[Brisel]

There are some very good & sustainable cultivation systems out there with excellent profitability. Saving £50/ac is no good if you lose £150/ac once every 3 years when a cockup happens. Just trying to shake the belief that steel is the answer to everything.

 

[Chalky]

Lines of vining pea haulm, potato & beet aftermaths & maize stubble require a little more than a direct drill as you will know. Hence my statement about 'if combinables only'. I, like you, am judged on results & employed to ensure them. Would suit me fine to run a carrier, rake & have a couple of DD drills, lose a man maybe. Beet, spuds & peas would have to be down the road though, to ensure that soil damage was eliminated. The rotational & profit benefits of these crops would leave a fair sized hole to be saved through direct drilling-though anything is possible. Spreadsheets can show all sorts if you want!

 

[Grass And Grain]

What is a high margin crop? 10 t/ha feed wheat at £140/t with a cost of production of £150/t from all the horsepower and blackgrass sprays thrown at it or 8 t/ha of wheat grown for £115/t from less overheads, a good healthy soil and a suitable rotation that reduces blackgrass pressure outside a crop? Of course to reduce the COP you'd need to sell the Quadtracs and tillage trains.

So £1500/ha production cost for the maxi til (10*150), but only £920 for the no til(8*115)???

I don't think it costs £580/ha more to plough and combi-drill compared to no till drilling.

Plenty of contractors around here will plough then combi-drill for £125/ha, compared to say £40/ha for direct drilling. So the plough system needs £85/ha in extra yield.

I know it's not quite as simple as that. There's potentially different herbicide spend, potentially worse GM with no-till, more cultivations with ploughing on really heavy land etc etc.

 

[Mellors Chatterley]

My oh My.

Been dreaming of a spring like this for years, and its arrived! Wet clay, Wet clay, Wet clay...... Direct drill

Simple...... Patience.

20 years ago we were ploughing everything, then moved to mintill, then to the Claydon system, and now onto zero till (Dale eco drill, Kuhn SD4000). We have had our moments believe me, when we were going to resort to back to the plough, but we didn't. Grey hair and no teeth I have both in abundance.

Why... simple, we did not follow the spreadsheet.

No, we followed our common sense, we followed what WE KNOW about our soil, gut instinct, not what the bank manager wants. I'm lucky I know, I have a employer that has 100 % trust in me, and because of that we today 29/03/17 have zero spring seed in the ground. It will dry up. All this talk of Cuckoo corns is rubbish, your fore fathers farming in the 50's will tell you that. Things have moved on from 60 years ago, we have better agronomy, cover crops, better equipment. We just need to believe in it. Its the three O's

Observation, Observation, Observation.

We have the world's best here I really believe that. Claydon, Dale, Mzuri, Weaving, Moore, T-Sem, what the hell are we worrying about.

Write it down, remember, take photos, use the internet, USE THE TFF!!, research, what we all want is the same maximum profit from minimal output. But we all have something different....... the soil, Fred's is different to Bob's, Bobs different to Jacks and Fred's, that where research and development come in.
I'm different I don't come from a farming background, so I don't have a "old Man " looking over my shoulder, but I'm willing to take a risk.

Have any regrets about zero drilling done to date? NONE AT ALL, everyday is a school day, LD subsoiler has helped, cover crops and sheep have massively helped. There's plenty of time yet, chill!!

For the record our yields are better today than they were in 1997 , and any system since .Knowledge & Observation are key. We have 700 acres to drill yet, might start next week, might not. Who's in charge you or the spreadsheet / bank manager. Trust yourself!

Who Dares Wins

MC

 

[snarling bee]

MC

There are some telling words in this post.

"My employer", "LD subsoiler", and "sheep".

ie its not your money or risk, you are still subsoiling, and you are not purely arable.

With my money I cant afford disasters, or waiting for 10 years for the worms to do their bit. If you are subsoiling you are probably in that 10 year zone if you believe everything you read in the DD section of this forum. We tried sheep some years back and had to give up due to foot rot on wet ground, and they loose more money than arable.

Me, well I'm too traditional and a laggard, obviously.

 

[yellow belly]

The seeding depth was a little erratic; caused mainly by soil sticking to the inside of the big disc, catching the seed, and flicking it out. This improved the slower we went. The beans were worse generally for this, being in the side of the slit, not the bottom, but it did get them in. Not sure if this is because of where the discs meet the beans actually have to come up to get out being a larger seed?

On the heavier land the slot closure wasn't brilliant, although a gentle press with my boot sealed it. I have rolled the barley but not the beans as the bean land was far more tender (better soil but wetter). Cambridge rolling it has shut the slots but will have damaged the surface of the soil. I didn't want to rake it for fear of opening the seed slot up and tearing chunks out. I felt the closing wheel could do with a rib on like some of the American packer wheels you see to exert more pressure near the slot.

The weight needed for penetration was surprisingly large. It gave the impression that it was always fighting itself to penetrate, but it did go in but to have the wheels off the floor at this time of year made me a little concerned for drier times.

You could hardly see where the drill had been which might help the bg situation.

It managed the chopped straw far better than in the autumn now it was more brittle. There was some straw drawn into the slot but no hairpining as such.

I couldn't have drilled into the bean field because of a large mustard cover crop which would have blocked the seedhawk in 5 yards. I will drill one pass of barley next to the gd plot with the seedhawk (without placed fert) and then the next one with the seedhawk with placed DAP to see the differences. Not scientific but it will give an impression.

Based on the different speeds we tried the 6m drill at I don't feel there would be any significant output advantage over the 8m seedhawk, bearing in mind I only drill at 7km/hr with the seedhawk. The larger seed hopper would favour the GD a bit.

To surmise, I like the concept and Weaving have been very generous in allowing me 2 demos, but I need to see the crop establishment to get more of a feel and it does seem a whole heap of money especially when I am debating what to do about my slugs!

heavier land could be better left till it is dryer because if it is wet is 2 weeks time the establishment will be poorer and drought never hurt notill spring crops on heavy deep soils but hurts dried out cultivations a lot
my best notill beans were drilled 14 april and barley 28 april both 2013
this year it is still a little too wet 3 mm last night and most of the spring land has some black grass
which the preem will need to last till may

 

[willy]

The seeding depth was a little erratic; caused mainly by soil sticking to the inside of the big disc, catching the seed, and flicking it out. This improved the slower we went. The beans were worse generally for this, being in the side of the slit, not the bottom, but it did get them in. Not sure if this is because of where the discs meet the beans actually have to come up to get out being a larger seed?

On the heavier land the slot closure wasn't brilliant, although a gentle press with my boot sealed it. I have rolled the barley but not the beans as the bean land was far more tender (better soil but wetter). Cambridge rolling it has shut the slots but will have damaged the surface of the soil. I didn't want to rake it for fear of opening the seed slot up and tearing chunks out. I felt the closing wheel could do with a rib on like some of the American packer wheels you see to exert more pressure near the slot.

The weight needed for penetration was surprisingly large. It gave the impression that it was always fighting itself to penetrate, but it did go in but to have the wheels off the floor at this time of year made me a little concerned for drier times.

You could hardly see where the drill had been which might help the bg situation.

It managed the chopped straw far better than in the autumn now it was more brittle. There was some straw drawn into the slot but no hairpining as such.

I couldn't have drilled into the bean field because of a large mustard cover crop which would have blocked the seedhawk in 5 yards. I will drill one pass of barley next to the gd plot with the seedhawk (without placed fert) and then the next one with the seedhawk with placed DAP to see the differences. Not scientific but it will give an impression.

Based on the different speeds we tried the 6m drill at I don't feel there would be any significant output advantage over the 8m seedhawk, bearing in mind I only drill at 7km/hr with the seedhawk. The larger seed hopper would favour the GD a bit.

To surmise, I like the concept and Weaving have been very generous in allowing me 2 demos, but I need to see the crop establishment to get more of a feel and it does seem a whole heap of money especially when I am debating what to do about my slugs!

Ok so what I've found is this....

After drilling on heavy land the slots look like slots but actually the seed is under the flap of soil and grows fine (but I have found not rolling is fine as at least some air can get to the seed as well as seed contact to the soil)


Yes speed is a big thing and going slower is better.

I will post some pictures of a barley drilled on some clay dd 10 days ago, nothing else would have gone and yet it's up whether through the slot or not. Also I have found slugs less under the gd, I still find the slugs but the soil is tighter compared to the Claydon and so the slugs just can't do the damage like it used to.

I must admit that dd/no till is a real head scratcher and has helped me go grey (along with the kids) before my time. But I love it as it makes me think!!!

 

[Flat 10]

I'm sure but there's plenty to think about with DD but there's plenty to think about with 'conventional ' farming too, especially if you are going to adopt an opportunistic cultivation policy a la spud and others. To be a good farmer you need to be thinking hard!

 

[willy]

I'm sure but there's plenty to think about with DD but there's plenty to think about with 'conventional ' farming too, especially if you are going to adopt an opportunistic cultivation policy a la spud and others. To be a good farmer you need to be thinking hard!

Ooh I like that post......

 

[willy]

Actually that sounded a bit camp

 

[Flat 10]

Ooh I like that post......

Thanks. I was worried you would think l was having a pop at DD which I absolutely wasn't or at you. Just a slight dig at the DD evangelists who think because of their system they are somehow better, cleverer and superior to everyone else. FWIW I have immense respect for anyone making DD work and indeed anyone who consistently farms well, producing good crops and giving me something to aim at!

 

[Flat 10]

Actually that sounded a bit camp

I'm sure you aren't

 

[Flat 10]

Oh l forgot 'best ' farmer l know farms several thousand acres well spread out and ploughs 50%ish and max tills the rest......
I don't know how he does it so consistently well but fair play!

 

[willy]

Oh l forgot 'best ' farmer l know farms several thousand acres well spread out and ploughs 50%ish and max tills the rest......
I don't know how he does it so consistently well but fair play!

Yes this is the fact, and I think sometimes I am jealous, some have a system and just stick to it and it works. And they don't get sucked into fads, but then one day they will be outdated, or beat by a circumstance I.e black grass. So some times change is a must. But most times it's not needed but human nature gets the better of you

 

[Spud]

7 inch share has never worked for beans on heavy land, we use bean kit if reasonably dry and 3" spoons if damp or more cultivation is beneficial.

We drilled winter beans 5" deep into a dynadrived stubble on one of the heaviest fields on the farm last November with our Kockerling drill....which has 17" shares!!

 

[Spud]

This field (not mine, mercifully) has been ploughed every year for generations. Currently fallow. I've just sprayed it off for the owner. What would your strategy be?

 

[Feldspar]

Wandered around what I thought was our better bit of zero-till second wheat. Rather depressing experience. Very patchy, and plants look pretty unenthusiastic about their life. The Pacifica is killing a lot of brome in these crops. Never knew what brome really looked like until this year. A no-till weed I could do without.

With the above experience in mind I am reasonably content that we are maschioing behind our 750a drilled spring barley. We have fiddled around with settings and speeds and still the slot closure is not consistently good enough. It's not acceptable to have very patchy crops, and that is what we have despite drilling into what I thought were excellent conditions last autumn. To those who say wait until it dries up, we did that last year and by the end of April these mythically perfect conditions still hadn't arrived. Our soil never actually dried to anywhere near as dry as it is now. To wait for even better conditions than we have now is totally unpalatable. The very late drilled crops were loss making even before fixed costs in some cases.

 

[Louis Mc]

Wandered around what I thought was our better bit of zero-till second wheat. Rather depressing experience. Very patchy, and plants look pretty unenthusiastic about their life. The Pacifica is killing a lot of brome in these crops. Never knew what brome really looked like until this year. A no-till weed I could do without.

With the above experience in mind I am reasonably content that we are maschioing behind our 750a drilled spring barley. We have fiddled around with settings and speeds and still the slot closure is not consistently good enough. It's not acceptable to have very patchy crops, and that is what we have despite drilling into what I thought were excellent conditions last autumn. To those who say wait until it dries up, we did that last year and by the end of April these mythically perfect conditions still hadn't arrived. Our soil never actually dried to anywhere near as dry as it is now. To wait for even better conditions than we have now is totally unpalatable. The very late drilled crops were loss making even before fixed costs in some cases.

View attachment 493484

Do you not have a blocked coulter (or two) in this photo?