Anyone thinking of installing heat exchange pump for central heating...think again

[ollie989898]

As pointed out air/ground source heat pumps only make sense in very well insulated houses with under floor heating or oversized radiators because of the lower water temperature. I'm sure that they have their place. But their place is not in the vast majority of the UK housing stock just as (in my humble opinion) electric vehicles are never going to be a solution for anything other than urbanites 'tootling' to the supermarket for their weekly shop.

The concept of air source heat pumps heating most houses in the UK or an electric 4x4 utility vehicles pulling a full Ivor Williams stock trailer across a field in a winter like 1962 leaves me shaking my head in disbelief. Neither will work IMHO. I'm sure it's not popular in green circles to point out the bindingly obvious.

The big mistake was 'pissing the North Sea Oil bounty up the wall'. Just imagine if then we had started using a percentage of that wealth to start insulating properties back in the 1970's and also built up a sovereign weath fund like Norway did. As usual everything is short term with no proper planning and the current 'green nonsense' is all being engineered as part of the 4th Industrial Revolution (i.e. another way for a lot of people to make a lot of money off the green agenda as many of the traditional industries are no longer profitable).

Ain't going to bother me too much as I don't have that many years left but I fear we are leaving a mighty mess for our grand children.

Electric cars will work. One of our near neighbours has a tesla model 3. Gets him the 30 miles to work and back, changes via lead under the garage door. It's no big deal. Won't work for all but the average annual UK mileage is ridiculously low. For tractors, plant and 4x4s you can just use HVO as a drop in and then methyl esters once true synthetic fuels are online.

The bulk of this forum could buy HVO and run their diesel engines on it right now with no significant changes to their operations.

Ditto heating oil- a renewable version of this exists or could be formulated. Household kerosene is a lot convoluted a product compared to road fuels.

 

[grainboy]

But where is all this extra electricity supply going to come from,

 

[Farma Parma]

But where is all this extra electricity supply going to come from,

Bugs the hell outta me we cant even supply all the electric out own county needs right now so there is no hope

 

[ollie989898]

But where is all this extra electricity supply going to come from,

The grid does not run at full capacity all-day every-day.

Overnight there is about 20 GW of generating capacity that gets stood down. It will be this capacity that gets used to charge folk's cars, it won't be during the day.

Even at 20 pence a unit, electric cars cost virtually fudge all compared to fossil fuels. 20 pence a unit is £200 per GWh and believe me you could build a dozen Hinkley C's for that kind of money.

 

[Farma Parma]

The grid does not run at full capacity all-day every-day.

Overnight there is about 20 GW of generating capacity that gets stood down. It will be this capacity that gets used to charge folk's cars, it won't be during the day.

Even at 20 pence a unit, electric cars cost virtually fudge all compared to fossil fuels. 20 pence a unit is £200 per GWh and believe me you could build a dozen Hinkley C's for that kind of money.

Just wait at night when loads more have electric cars & on charge at home over night & on smart meters the rates will be ramped up loads more.
Another reason not to get a smart meter

 

[Steevo]

But where is all this extra electricity supply going to come from,

I was saying this earlier today to someone - turn all gas/oil boilers electric and suddenly you're asking a lot of the grid in a cold snap. All it takes is for the snow to make some power lines drop and you've got plenty of houses with no heating whatsoever.

 

[How much]

There is allot of mentioning of insulation on here that is important for air or ground source heat , but so is air tightness , in simple terms you can have as much insulation in your loft or under your floors as you like it all the heat escapes under the door, out the kitchen extractor or up the chimney !! heat pumps are very unlikely to work in a house that was not either built with them in mind or upgraded to work with them , underfloor heating for example.

 

[grainboy]

I was saying this earlier today to someone - turn all gas/oil boilers electric and suddenly you're asking a lot of the grid in a cold snap. All it takes is for the snow to make some power lines drop and you've got plenty of houses with no heating whatsoever.

This is the whole point,
UK power network is at near capacity now, there was an upgrade promised. But it hasn’t happened.
When all the heat pumps and car chargers are connected the lights will go out,
Can’t wait till. ‘I told you so’

 

[Steevo]

This is the whole point,
UK power network is at near capacity now, there was an upgrade promised. But it hasn’t happened.
When all the heat pumps and car chargers are connected the lights will go out,
Can’t wait till. ‘I told you so’

We'll all need to take a leaf out of the Top Gear book and install a diesel generator!

 

[Wisconsonian]

Overnight there is about 20 GW of generating capacity that gets stood down

That's great if there's car batteries tied into the system to take 20GW of wind energy, but more and more of the capacity is natural gas, and that's the problem right now. Burning more natural gas off peak doesn't help the energy situation.

Most of the UK has a favorable climate for air to air heat pumps. (radiators will never be a good fit for heat pumps) All of the UK would work great with ground source heat pumps. I disagree with the argument that they won't work in houses with a large heat load, if they're cheaper heat than oil, they'll be cheaper at a large load than a small load. The initial cost will the the roadblock, and insulation will be more effective than a bigger system.

Existing houses have to be retrofitted. People say insulation won't pay for itself, meanwhile they're living in a drafty house for 40 years with no insulation. Parts of this country keeping an oil boiler hot all year round for domestic hot water, crazy. HowMuch is exactly right about airtightness, far better to seal the ceiling than all the insulation in the world. And it is the air leaking out the top of the house that is the most important to seal. You feel the cold draft under the door, but there are more leaks at the base of the house than you can find, and they're harder to fix. Almost always most effective to peel back all the attic insulation and seal the envelope, if there is no envelope then make one.

"We'll all need to take a leaf out of the Top Gear book and install a diesel generator!" not a bad idea at all if you already burn oil. Might as well use the heat to heat a home or hot water. Same if you burn natural gas or propane, generators are cheap enough, or could drive a heat pump directly.

 

[davidroberts30]

We'll all need to take a leaf out of the Top Gear book and install a diesel generator!

Just like copout 26

 

[Lakesdigger]

There is allot of mentioning of insulation on here that is important for air or ground source heat , but so is air tightness , in simple terms you can have as much insulation in your loft or under your floors as you like it all the heat escapes under the door, out the kitchen extractor or up the chimney !! heat pumps are very unlikely to work in a house that was not either built with them in mind or upgraded to work with them , underfloor heating for example.

Its all well and good everyone going on about insulation and lack of it re heat pumps. The whole point of insulation is it benefit any kind of heating system. The bit we seem to miss is that we consume too much energy full stop and waste it however its generated. If every home was built with underfloor heating and packed with insulation etc it would require v little heat input of any kind. A gas boiler in a well insulated home has v little work to do if the system it's connected to is properly designed. The only reason we are having heat pumps rammed down our throats is because of grants.

 

[Speedstar]

heat pumps only really work with under floor heating
radiators waste of time as pump wont get hot enough

@Speedstar do you have underfloor heating?

Yes we have under floor heating & yes you are right unless you have the new type radiators with the fans in them to blow air throw them & they work well

 

[Tubbylew]

Electric cars will work. One of our near neighbours has a tesla model 3. Gets him the 30 miles to work and back, changes via lead under the garage door. It's no big deal. Won't work for all but the average annual UK mileage is ridiculously low. For tractors, plant and 4x4s you can just use HVO as a drop in and then methyl esters once true synthetic fuels are online.

The bulk of this forum could buy HVO and run their diesel engines on it right now with no significant changes to their operations.

Ditto heating oil- a renewable version of this exists or could be formulated. Household kerosene is a lot convoluted a product compared to road fuels.

Yeah but using logic and common sense isn't gonna make elon, jeff and bill much money.

 

[serf]

In old farm houses I recon you want your options open with fuel ,
Have solid fuel wood , have a dunsley on circuit and have oil tapped in and maybe a solar panel and you have options then and you can get some propper heat when you really need it .
Some of theses old places are never going to be air tight like new so need the option to Stoke it up when needed .

 

[Farma Parma]

In old farm houses I recon you want your options open with fuel ,
Have solid fuel wood , have a dunsley on circuit and have oil tapped in and maybe a solar panel and you have options then and you can get some propper heat when you really need it .
Some of theses old places are never going to be air tight like new so need the option to Stoke it up when needed .

Its the same when your a Tenant you cant just do that much to the house unless you knock it down n start again

 

[ollie989898]

That's great if there's car batteries tied into the system to take 20GW of wind energy, but more and more of the capacity is natural gas, and that's the problem right now. Burning more natural gas off peak doesn't help the energy situation.

Most of the UK has a favorable climate for air to air heat pumps. (radiators will never be a good fit for heat pumps) All of the UK would work great with ground source heat pumps. I disagree with the argument that they won't work in houses with a large heat load, if they're cheaper heat than oil, they'll be cheaper at a large load than a small load. The initial cost will the the roadblock, and insulation will be more effective than a bigger system.

Existing houses have to be retrofitted. People say insulation won't pay for itself, meanwhile they're living in a drafty house for 40 years with no insulation. Parts of this country keeping an oil boiler hot all year round for domestic hot water, crazy. HowMuch is exactly right about airtightness, far better to seal the ceiling than all the insulation in the world. And it is the air leaking out the top of the house that is the most important to seal. You feel the cold draft under the door, but there are more leaks at the base of the house than you can find, and they're harder to fix. Almost always most effective to peel back all the attic insulation and seal the envelope, if there is no envelope then make one.

"We'll all need to take a leaf out of the Top Gear book and install a diesel generator!" not a bad idea at all if you already burn oil. Might as well use the heat to heat a home or hot water. Same if you burn natural gas or propane, generators are cheap enough, or could drive a heat pump directly.

I have no doubt that it is very cheap to heat a house with air source or ground source if the house is air tight and insulated to the max. The problem is that to get our house to that level of insulation would be serious thousands. Pitch this against a few tanks of oil a year and you're on a losing wicket.

We aren't even in the house that much during the day and our actual electricity consumption is fudge all in the scheme of things because we have modern appliances and LED bulbs everywhere. If there is anything that would save me a lot of money per year right now it would be switching both cars to battery power.

Lastly, our oil boiler burns precisely fudge all between the months of April and October when all it is doing is heating up our hot water twice a day. The boiler comes on, heats the water in our tank and then shuts off. If you don't use much hot water then the tank basically stays hot all day and the boiler has nothing to do. It's actual oil consumption in the summer months is zip- won't even move the level of the tank meter.

Also, I have no intention of ever sealing our loft space because it relies on having a natural air flow through it to keep the loft space dry and free of damp.

You are talking about spending the neck end of 50K for any serious property to get it anywhere near insulated enough for a heat pump system. I'll stick with our boiler and just use HVO when the time comes.

New houses with their insulation and heat pumps, otherwise the electricity bill running them will be crazy.

 

[cb387]

heat pumps only really work with under floor heating
radiators waste of time as pump wont get hot enough

local plumber said exactly this ^^

 

[Lakesdigger]

I have no doubt that it is very cheap to heat a house with air source or ground source if the house is air tight and insulated to the max. The problem is that to get our house to that level of insulation would be serious thousands. Pitch this against a few tanks of oil a year and you're on a losing wicket.

We aren't even in the house that much during the day and our actual electricity consumption is fudge all in the scheme of things because we have modern appliances and LED bulbs everywhere. If there is anything that would save me a lot of money per year right now it would be switching both cars to battery power.

Lastly, our oil boiler burns precisely fudge all between the months of April and October when all it is doing is heating up our hot water twice a day. The boiler comes on, heats the water in our tank and then shuts off. If you don't use much hot water then the tank basically stays hot all day and the boiler has nothing to do. It's actual oil consumption in the summer months is zip- won't even move the level of the tank meter.

Also, I have no intention of ever sealing our loft space because it relies on having a natural air flow through it to keep the loft space dry and free of damp.

You are talking about spending the neck end of 50K for any serious property to get it anywhere near insulated enough for a heat pump system. I'll stick with our boiler and just use HVO when the time comes.

New houses with their insulation and heat pumps, otherwise the electricity bill running them will be crazy.

There's drawbacks/issues to come from all this sealing up and air tightness it just hasn't been around long enough yet.

 

[ollie989898]

There's drawbacks/issues to come from all this sealing up and air tightness it just hasn't been around long enough yet.

I wouldn't want a fully sealed up house. I don't live in Finland or Canada and I don't like living in a house that is perpetually hot. We lived for 13 months in a brand new rental property and it was a living hell in the summer because even with every window open the house retained heat like you wouldn't believe. The guy near opposite us worked from home and driving by the other day I see has had an air conditioning unit fitted to the wall- what he has gained from modern insulation has cost him now to cool that one room he sits in all day. Ironic really.