Anything below bus pass

[Walterp]

When the baler-man said he could turn up that afternoon, but "all the gates better be left open" I was naturally curious; turns out he'd recently had a hip replacement - baling was no problem, but opening gates was beyond him.

I can't be the only person to know old farmers who have to be hoisted into their tractors each morning, (although perhaps I am the only one to think it an ineffably sad waste of life - 'scraping out' does not advance the human condition).

The UK (unlike France, which has a different interpretation) designs agricultural support to encourage farmers to carry on for as long as they are physically able - hence the average age of UK farmers is now 59 (and rising); anyone below bus pass age is, by this measure, still a young farmer.

If, instead of amending its farm support system, the UK abolishes it will this inject fresh blood onto its farms? Or hasten their descent into decrepitude?

Lots of wishful (not to say envious) thinking on this, from youngsters whose parents ought to know better - in 2015 the average farm made £2,100 from agriculture and £28,300 from subsidies. The typical cereal farmer actually lost £9,500 by farming cereals.

Few (if any) youngsters are dim enough to wish to farm under these economic conditions. And if they did, their wives or girlfriends would, quite sensibly, stop them.

(I question whether many of the old guys will, either, but that's a different question; the French have an expression for that - pour faute de mieux - that points out that youngsters have alternatives that old guys no longer possess).

The UK abandoning subsidies means it also abandons its farms, rather than rejuvenating them.

 

[GTB]

Isn't it just one big cycle. Someone's grandad died with his boots on so his dad didn't get to take over the farm until his late fifties so he carries on having 'only just' taken over and so the circle continues.

And as we all know it's the tax laws that encourage them to continue into their old age not subs. Farmers have always (quite rightly) been advised by accountants and solicitors alike that they should die with their boots on. This practice hardly encourages them to think of succession planning does it?

 

[PSQ]

the average age of UK farmers is now 59 (and rising)

What is the average age of 'managing directors' (all companies) in the UK?

I'd imagine it's similar, but we get especially hung up over it in agriculture because in most cases 'boss' = family 'issues'.

 

[Goweresque]

Isn't it just one big cycle. Someone's grandad died with his boots on so his dad didn't get to take over the farm until his late fifties so he carries on having 'only just' taken over and so the circle continues.

And as we all know it's the tax laws that encourage them to continue into their old age not subs. Farmers have always (quite rightly) been advised by accountants and solicitors alike that they should die with their boots on. This practice hardly encourages them to think of succession planning does it?

While tax laws may change, the current situation is as favourable for retirement as I think I can ever remember it (my father inherited from his father in 1974 when pips were being squeaked). You can sell up and pay just 10% on up to £10m as a retirement sale using Entrepreneur Relief, and you can pass land on to the younger generation entirely free of IHT via Agricultural Property Relief. The only advantage of dying with your boots on is that the farm gets revalued at market price on death, and the heirs get a higher base value for future CGT purposes.

I think the main reason for hanging on is that people have failed entirely to make provision for their retirement and can't afford to hand over the farm - there is no pension, other than the BPS. Plus farmers are natural control freaks and giving up control is often only forced by poor health, or even death.

 

[Pasty]

I believe the ones leaving the land as it 'doesn't work' without subsidies are the ones that need to go. Of course it can work. All it needs is vision and an entrepreneurial attitude. Nothing stands still. Cattle farming 80's style will simply not work today. Same with sheep. The old boys are soon going to be up against youngsters with high performance ewes and most of them not only won't get a yearly handout, they will be paying rent as well. And they'll still do better. Because they have no choice.

Let's face it. Anyone with 200ac plus really doesn't need to get out of bed in the morning to have a basic standard of living. Throw in a few enviro schemes and sell the grass to sheep or dairy farmers and you are quids in for doing absolutely nothing more than organising hedge cutter and filling in some forms. This is the reality and I'm in no way saying that most farmers do that but maybe under the current rules they should seriously consider it rather than flogging a dead horse so they don't get laughed at by their neighbours.

I'll get my coat. Again.

 

[Goweresque]

I believe the ones leaving the land as it 'doesn't work' without subsidies are the ones that need to go. Of course it can work. All it needs is vision and an entrepreneurial attitude. Nothing stands still. Cattle farming 80's style will simply not work today. Same with sheep. The old boys are soon going to be up against youngsters with high performance ewes and most of them not only won't get a yearly handout, they will be paying rent as well. And they'll still do better. Because they have no choice.

Let's face it. Anyone with 200ac plus really doesn't need to get out of bed in the morning to have a basic standard of living. Throw in a few enviro schemes and sell the grass to sheep or dairy farmers and you are quids in for doing absolutely nothing more than organising hedge cutter and filling in some forms. This is the reality and I'm in no way saying that most farmers do that but maybe under the current rules they should seriously consider it rather than flogging a dead horse so they don't get laughed at by their neighbours.

I'll get my coat. Again.

Add in that if they're desperate to get out of bed at 6am every day and go grafting they'll be able to get a minimum wage job paying £9/hr by 2020, with all the employee benefits that go with it, and you'd have to be making serious money from actively farming the land to compare with all that income..................

 

[Pasty]

Add in that if they're desperate to get out of bed at 6am every day and go grafting they'll be able to get a minimum wage job paying £9/hr by 2020, with all the employee benefits that go with it, and you'd have to be making serious money from actively farming the land to compare with all that income..................

I disagree in some ways. Farming is making money from land. I think many are stuck in a rut of the definition of 'farming'. They cannot be helped unless they are willing to change.

Make money from your land. Whatever way you can. It's that simple.

 

[wasted years]

I disagree in some ways. Farming is making money from land. I think many are stuck in a rut of the definition of 'farming'. They cannot be helped unless they are willing to change.

Make money from your land. Whatever way you can. It's that simple.

But it isn't when you actually try, and I'm not short of vision or positivity.
I'm trying to get planning for something that had no objections, 3 months and 15k just for starters.
Getting finance isn't a quick job, getting the great british worker to get a move on is nigh on impossible.
Then try dealing with a monopoly like Electricity NW.
As my consultant said,
'most people would have given up long ago'

 

[Y Fan Wen]

I'll have had my bus pass for ten years next month and I still enjoy farming. The only difference is that I can't do things I used to do and have to get other people to do them instead. The first thing I stopped was shearing. The next step down was getting a fencing contractor in. That really hurt mentally. Now I don't handle the sheep anymore either, tho' I'm always in the pens when they are being used. I suppose the final nail will be when I have to stop the bracken spraying. Maybe I'll fall off the perch first?

 

[Pasty]

I'll have had my bus pass for ten years next month and I still enjoy farming. The only difference is that I can't do things I used to do and have to get other people to do them instead. The first thing I stopped was shearing. The next step down was getting a fencing contractor in. That really hurt mentally. Now I don't handle the sheep anymore either, tho' I'm always in the pens when they are being used. I suppose the final nail will be when I have to stop the bracken spraying. Maybe I'll fall off the perch first?

If you can roll with the new and give the benefit of your knowledge and experience then you have a place in any farm. Just be gentle and allow youngsters to make mistakes on their own. They will soon come to learn the value of wisdom. I know I did.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I'll have had my bus pass for ten years next month and I still enjoy farming. The only difference is that I can't do things I used to do and have to get other people to do them instead. The first thing I stopped was shearing. The next step down was getting a fencing contractor in. That really hurt mentally. Now I don't handle the sheep anymore either, tho' I'm always in the pens when they are being used. I suppose the final nail will be when I have to stop the bracken spraying. Maybe I'll fall off the perch first?

But you know what I respect you for all that. I've met people in professions who have tidy pensions and they don't know what to do with themselves after taking early retirement. So it can't be both ways - if it keeps you fit and well etc.

I would say there does need to be room enough for the upcoming ones to grow as it were but that doesn't mean taking the jobs the old ones like doing. Walter may say scraping out doesn't advance the human condition but just because a job is routine it doesn't mean its worthless or beneath anyone. I think a balance is good - my old man will go out to lunch and away on more holidays with mum now they are both 70 plus, but he doesn't want to lose contact with the farm as that actually keeps him young.

 

[le bon paysan]

When the baler-man said he could turn up that afternoon, but "all the gates better be left open" I was naturally curious; turns out he'd recently had a hip replacement - baling was no problem, but opening gates was beyond him.

I can't be the only person to know old farmers who have to be hoisted into their tractors each morning, (although perhaps I am the only one to think it an ineffably sad waste of life - 'scraping out' does not advance the human condition).

The UK (unlike France, which has a different interpretation) designs agricultural support to encourage farmers to carry on for as long as they are physically able - hence the average age of UK farmers is now 59 (and rising); anyone below bus pass age is, by this measure, still a young farmer.

If, instead of amending its farm support system, the UK abolishes it will this inject fresh blood onto its farms? Or hasten their descent into decrepitude?

Lots of wishful (not to say envious) thinking on this, from youngsters whose parents ought to know better - in 2015 the average farm made £2,100 from agriculture and £28,300 from subsidies. The typical cereal farmer actually lost £9,500 by farming cereals.

Few (if any) youngsters are dim enough to wish to farm under these economic conditions. And if they did, their wives or girlfriends would, quite sensibly, stop them.

(I question whether many of the old guys will, either, but that's a different question; the French have an expression for that - pour faute de mieux - that points out that youngsters have alternatives that old guys no longer possess).

The UK abandoning subsidies means it also abandons its farms, rather than rejuvenating them.

In France you can't draw your pension and farm subsidies. You can't get ICHN (LFA payments) after you are 65 whether you draw your pension or not. As a % of Suckler cow , sheep subs and area payments are being transferred slowly but surely into the ICHN they are forcing older farmers out.

 

[GTB]

In France you can't draw your pension and farm subsidies. You can't get ICHN (LFA payments) after you are 65 whether you draw your pension or not. As a % of Suckler cow , sheep subs and area payments are being transferred slowly but surely into the ICHN they are forcing older farmers out.

That does make sense though. I thought it was coming here too when they asked for everyone's social security numbers a few years back.

 

[Roger Perry]

Walter, is that figure of only twenty one hundred profit correct...?

You farm all year for 2,100........that's only like.......nothing.

 

[Walterp]

What is the average age of 'managing directors' (all companies) in the UK?

I'd imagine it's similar, but we get especially hung up over it in agriculture because in most cases 'boss' = family 'issues'.

Fair question.

I was self-employed at 28, just as soon as my professional regulations allowed me to practise on my own account.

Looking around me, then, the businesses and professions I saw had a preponderance of young people (generally around 40) because success depended on energy and drive. The older generation tended to retire or take a back seat, because after 30 years of anything, it tends to get a bit 'samey'.

Farming isn't like any other business I've ever seen.

 

[caveman]

Work smarter with age.
Is it wrong?
Not in my opinion.
An awfull lot more people in other fields are going to have to look forward to working into their 70's and beyond down to the sheer economics of the states welfare system and life expectancy.

 

[bobk]

When the baler-man said he could turn up that afternoon, but "all the gates better be left open" I was naturally curious; turns out he'd recently had a hip replacement - baling was no problem, but opening gates was beyond him.

I can't be the only person to know old farmers who have to be hoisted into their tractors each morning, (although perhaps I am the only one to think it an ineffably sad waste of life - 'scraping out' does not advance the human condition).

The UK (unlike France, which has a different interpretation) designs agricultural support to encourage farmers to carry on for as long as they are physically able - hence the average age of UK farmers is now 59 (and rising); anyone below bus pass age is, by this measure, still a young farmer.

If, instead of amending its farm support system, the UK abolishes it will this inject fresh blood onto its farms? Or hasten their descent into decrepitude?

Lots of wishful (not to say envious) thinking on this, from youngsters whose parents ought to know better - in 2015 the average farm made £2,100 from agriculture and £28,300 from subsidies. The typical cereal farmer actually lost £9,500 by farming cereals.

Few (if any) youngsters are dim enough to wish to farm under these economic conditions. And if they did, their wives or girlfriends would, quite sensibly, stop them.

(I question whether many of the old guys will, either, but that's a different question; the French have an expression for that - pour faute de mieux - that points out that youngsters have alternatives that old guys no longer possess).

The UK abandoning subsidies means it also abandons its farms, rather than rejuvenating them.

Said it many times , if you're reliant on subs you're in the wrong job , plenty making good money farming... and plenty never will .

 

[bobk]

In France you can't draw your pension and farm subsidies. You can't get ICHN (LFA payments) after you are 65 whether you draw your pension or not. As a % of Suckler cow , sheep subs and area payments are being transferred slowly but surely into the ICHN they are forcing older farmers out.

The young aren't taking up the mantle though are they .

 

[Cowabunga]

Walter, is that figure of only twenty one hundred profit correct...?

You farm all year for 2,100........that's only like.......nothing.

I've just had the results for my farm from the Welsh national benchmarking scheme. It makes interesting reading. Since I'm a dairy farmer it is comparing my business with other dairy farms also in the scheme.

What is striking is that the bottom 25%, that's one in four dairy farmers made a LOSS after subsidies and all, of 16 pence per litre in 2016 and 12 ppl up until March 2017. It makes me cringe. The average herd size was around 250 cows for all categories.
My interpretation was that since the top 25% only made 3ppl profit until March 2017 [top 5% 8ppl] that to make a profit at all in any of those two years, it took being well into the top 50%. In other words to do better than break even one had to be above averagely efficient.

THAT is the reality of farming in the UK.

Let's not even mention personal drawings for something like a house mortgage out of farming income/loss.

 

[How much]

Fair question.

I was self-employed at 28, just as soon as my professional regulations allowed me to practise on my own account.

Looking around me, then, the businesses and professions I saw had a preponderance of young people (generally around 40) because success depended on energy and drive. The older generation tended to retire or take a back seat, because after 30 years of anything, it tends to get a bit 'samey'.

Farming isn't like any other business I've ever seen.

Farming has far more Partnerships than any other profession i know as opposed to sole traders and ltd companies , that probably has a bearing on the situation , but as stated above there has never been a better time to retire and farmers are treated exceptionally well in tax terms compared to any other business that gets pretty much nothing like the tax concessions farmers can get .

In essence most farmers don't retire because they don't want to , yes maybe they don't have a house off the farm in which to retire too but the could all rent if not buy a home a farm sale would bring in a reasonable sum for most, and the state pension would also provide and income .

But in essence most farmers would think that retiring , or selling up is s sign of failure and that is something there friends neighbours and colleagues would look down on them for considering , when i suspect
most would envy the man who makes that move .
Retiring does not mean they don't have to work in agriculture it is normal now for retirees to have a pert time job , farmers are fitter than most and i know farmers who have retired and are now employed off there farm in agricultural related rolls and love there new job an roll and freedom that come with it.