Applying no bagged P or K to crops

[ollie989898]

If you short silage land of K from whatever source, you are on a hiding to nothing.

Remember a farmer up North, stockman but grew good crops, reckoned his grass never needed lime as it was grazed. Pointed out that livestock remove minerals as you sell meat and rain caused leaching. When handed farm back for £££ to estate pH was 4-5!!!

Agree bagged P use can be mitigated a bit by mining using cover crops eg buckwheat for P, the soil replenishes solution P then the now organic matter P in the buckwheat cover provides for following crop, Not so sure of K on soils other than K releasing clays though...

As mentioned, dont confuse no bagged fert with 'but we use muck/compost/slurry etc etc'- still an import and still a cost. And a big one given logistics!

I would agree with all of this. Big heavy cuts of silage and intensive N use will strip the land of everything it has unless it is replaced.

I do believe that some soils nearly seem to regenerate their own K somehow, perhaps it is because of the underlying geology or similar. It makes sense that increasing levels of biomass/organic matter would make soils better able to supply the demands of a crop for nutrients but there would be a limit to this unless alchemy is now a thing.

I'm not convinced high CEC soils and lock up are as big an issue as we might believe- plants have been able to interrogate the soil and get what they need for millennia; they've been around far longer than us, after all. I presume the soil biota probably play a part in this in some way.

That being said, I have seen some of the best crops grown on land that was intensively min-tilled and arable cropped for decades with all it's P and K coming from fibrophos. You wouldn't find a worm anywhere there, yet the land still produced...

 

[Frodo]

What odds if 25 units going to make? This mindset is like someone who can't quite kick the habit because he is afraid he is magically going to lose loads of yield unless he does it. As you know, just in case applications of anything on TFF are highly frowned upon but in this case I would say I'd agree with the frowning.

Unless he has done soil tests for these things and found the land deficient the agronomist is basically telling the farmer to waste his money and in all likelihood is breaking nutrient guidelines.

Down here, a farm with pigs and cattle, including clients of mine, were buying no bagged P or K and were saving big on their nitrogen bill as well.

I imagine it’s spring barley for malting with a fairly short growing season. Applying some bag feet ensures it’s available at the start of the growing season.

I use a lot of hen pen to, and the 25kg bag p & k is certainly the consensus up here. Winter crop is ok without it.

 

[DRC]

My 2mins worth if it means anything.
Ive just done back of Fag Packet maths right on my acres of arable am roughly at £34/ac for MOP/TSP raw material costs ok for this year ahead
its all spread at 24m two trips job done, all vari rate on proper soil maps done via SOILQUEST/RHIZA
they know the indices going back 6years now. So its put where it needs to be poss the least wastefull way of using this product id say.
So lets switch back to applying good old cattle muck everywhere & mind id need some amount of tonnage of that
lets be kind to the land & put it on at 10t/ac being quite safe here. 20t/ac is where it needs too be really
that's actually a dearer exercise when you add in all the machinery work to remove it out the sheds heap it up/ reload it/spread it ect etc & boy you can put sum ruts in if your not careful
& anything i apply muck too here is ploughed i can assure you.
Now before i get shot down ive been down the lets skip a year & put no P&K on we did it coz whenever it was guessing 12-14 year ago it got to silly money someone will know the prices.
& the crop from it was deffo thinner, 4years after the original deep soil scans then full zone sampling iam now using slightly less P&K year on year.
so who is right or wrong?
I do use some cattle muck but only on about 50ac annually max. there just aint enough cattle to supply me with all the muck in the world around these parts.
and would i like to handle 5000t yearly err no thanks. its a massive amount of graft when the stuff out the bag is a one man job & all done in about 3 full days
Yes ive used Hen pen, it has its issues & with no real availability locally its quite pricey as it has too be hauled a fair distance. so for now until a more local supply is found its not being used.
its like rocket fuel mind.

Must admit, I keep thinking about this, and must sit down and do some costings on my straw for muck deal. Hauling it out to field tips myself and then paying contractor to spread it, isn’t cheap

 

[ollie989898]

Must admit, I keep thinking about this, and must sit down and do some costings on my straw for muck deal. Hauling it out to field tips myself and then paying contractor to spread it, isn’t cheap

Have you seen the crops in your photos or did I just imagine them?!! Whoever is providing and spreading your muck is doing you a royal service! Rain or shine yours are often the best looking crops on the whole forum!!!

 

[Bossfarmer]

My 2mins worth if it means anything.
Ive just done back of Fag Packet maths right on my acres of arable am roughly at £34/ac for MOP/TSP raw material costs ok for this year ahead
its all spread at 24m two trips job done, all vari rate on proper soil maps done via SOILQUEST/RHIZA
they know the indices going back 6years now. So its put where it needs to be poss the least wastefull way of using this product id say.
So lets switch back to applying good old cattle muck everywhere & mind id need some amount of tonnage of that
lets be kind to the land & put it on at 10t/ac being quite safe here. 20t/ac is where it needs too be really
that's actually a dearer exercise when you add in all the machinery work to remove it out the sheds heap it up/ reload it/spread it ect etc & boy you can put sum ruts in if your not careful
& anything i apply muck too here is ploughed i can assure you.
Now before i get shot down ive been down the lets skip a year & put no P&K on we did it coz whenever it was guessing 12-14 year ago it got to silly money someone will know the prices.
& the crop from it was deffo thinner, 4years after the original deep soil scans then full zone sampling iam now using slightly less P&K year on year.
so who is right or wrong?
I do use some cattle muck but only on about 50ac annually max. there just aint enough cattle to supply me with all the muck in the world around these parts.
and would i like to handle 5000t yearly err no thanks. its a massive amount of graft when the stuff out the bag is a one man job & all done in about 3 full days
Yes ive used Hen pen, it has its issues & with no real availability locally its quite pricey as it has too be hauled a fair distance. so for now until a more local supply is found its not being used.
its like rocket fuel mind.

would you spread the dung reasonably fresh or let it rot for a year? this will make a huge amount of difference to p and k levels in it? surely the main benefit of the dung though is the increase in organic matter to the soil?

 

[DRC]

Have you seen the crops in your photos or did I just imagine them?!! Whoever is providing and spreading your muck is doing you a royal service! Rain or shine yours are often the best looking crops on the whole forum!!!

Yes your right. I need the muck ( not I’ve got the best crops btw) could’ve made a fortune selling the straw this year though

 

[GeorgeK]

Nothing else brings up nutrients from depth like some good sized docks. When they get down into the clay subsoil... they're the Big Muskie of the plant world

 

[pine_guy]

Hmm, could they breed a infertile dock for cover crops I wonder.

Nothing else brings up nutrients from depth like some good sized docks. When they get down into the clay subsoil... they're the Big Muskie of the plant world

 

[Cab-over Pete]

If you short silage land of K from whatever source, you are on a hiding to nothing.

Remember a farmer up North, stockman but grew good crops, reckoned his grass never needed lime as it was grazed. Pointed out that livestock remove minerals as you sell meat and rain caused leaching. When handed farm back for £££ to estate pH was 4-5!!!

Agree bagged P use can be mitigated a bit by mining using cover crops eg buckwheat for P, the soil replenishes solution P then the now organic matter P in the buckwheat cover provides for following crop, Not so sure of K on soils other than K releasing clays though...

As mentioned, dont confuse no bagged fert with 'but we use muck/compost/slurry etc etc'- still an import and still a cost. And a big one given logistics!

Lost count of the amount of times I’ve heard “We don’t need lime, we only grow grass”

 

[Cowcorn]

If you short silage land of K from whatever source, you are on a hiding to nothing.

Remember a farmer up North, stockman but grew good crops, reckoned his grass never needed lime as it was grazed. Pointed out that livestock remove minerals as you sell meat and rain caused leaching. When handed farm back for £££ to estate pH was 4-5!!!

Agree bagged P use can be mitigated a bit by mining using cover crops eg buckwheat for P, the soil replenishes solution P then the now organic matter P in the buckwheat cover provides for following crop, Not so sure of K on soils other than K releasing clays though...

As mentioned, dont confuse no bagged fert with 'but we use muck/compost/slurry etc etc'- still an import and still a cost. And a big one given logistics!

Readily available p is very important for spring crops that really dont have the time to go mining !!! . The attached research trial shows a very high response to combine drilled p when indices are low . Taking a p + k holiday could be very expensive if youre not certain that your soils are tip top .

 

[Farma Parma]

would you spread the dung reasonably fresh or let it rot for a year? this will make a huge amount of difference to p and k levels in it? surely the main benefit of the dung though is the increase in organic matter to the soil?

Yes its too increase the organic matter first n foremost the bonus ontop is i dont normally apply any bagged P ot K on that land that year neither.
As for the first part normally it has to stay there for atleast 8months worse case or least 3months just as n when i get it & try to just tip it & not touch it until its loaded up again
but sometimes if its dry enough & space is a premium i heap it up.
This spring iam hoping to put sum on stubble that's currently in overwintered stubble.
Then the bulk of the may/june stuff will be tipped on some space in a fallow field to go on it, but you cant do that until mid August.

 

[Farma Parma]

Must admit, I keep thinking about this, and must sit down and do some costings on my straw for muck deal. Hauling it out to field tips myself and then paying contractor to spread it, isn’t cheap

The hidden costs in the muck shifting game we all know about it.
I clean whole sheds out myself & lead it all back here thankfully farm is only 2miles away so easy lead.
Its gold tho aint it esp wet muck....

 

[farmerm]

Not only rocks...clay has a very high CEC and will lock up no end of P & K and other nutrients. Fungi and bacteria are your friends here, that's why a healthy soil (which will be humming with microbial activity), doesn't need more added. We haven't put any bagged P &K on for ten years or so, indices are stable or rising, soil life is improving all the while. If you do add fertiliser, the mycorrhizae will shut up shop, lose/lose situation. Most agronomists are still thinking in the old 'extractive' mindset. Ignore their advice!

I find when we apply a fungicide the mycorrhizae shut up shop too and I dont know how to produce an economically viable and safe crop without them... I have a field that has been cut for hay every year since the dawn of the dinosaurs. its P and K indices are very low and its grass production is certainly limited by low P and K availability.. its heavy clay and the most biologically active soil on the whole farm, yet I do not see microbes to be making lots of locked up P and K available there.

 

[Flat 10]

I find when we apply a fungicide the mycorrhizae shut up shop too and I dont know how to produce an economically viable and safe crop without them... I have a field that has been cut for hay every year since the dawn of the dinosaurs. its P and K indices are very low and its grass production is certainly limited by low P and K availability.. its heavy clay and the most biologically active soil on the whole farm, yet I do not see microbes to be making lots of locked up P and K available there.

Someone else mentioned this earlier in the thread and I can back this up. 2 fields on different soil types left to regenerate from arable as long term set aside, just cut 1x a year. Both had terrible low indices. Surely the ‘natural’ ecosystem that had arisen should have maintained them at reasonable levels? Or do they just not need so much available P and K? None was being removed.

 

[Brisel]

I have increasingly been reading that more no till farmers are applying no bagged P or K and find that their indices are not decreasing. Are any members on here finding the same? We have recently moved to no till and the back bone of our rotation is 3-4 year grazed and silaged leys, all straw removed for our cattle and around 30-40% spring cropping using over winter covercrops which are grazed by our sheep. My thinking is the more alive and healthy your soil is the more locked away nutrients you can access?

There are a few things to consider here.

Many no tillers are only removing the grain and normally chop the straw back in. Cover crops extract soil reserves but return them to the next crops as they rot down. You are taking a lot out of the soil, and hopefully returning it as manure or slurry.

Many stock farmers are buying in fertiliser as feed and straw.

As above, the current system of soil analysis is far from perfect. There is far more nutrition in the soil than what can readily be extracted, short, medium and long term. This is a slide shown by Joel Williams at a workshop a few years ago that illustrates the point.

 

[redsloe]

Lost count of the amount of times I’ve heard “We don’t need lime, we only grow grass”

Oh dear, we test and generally put a couple ton of sea sand on our pp every 8 to 10 years or so to keep it in some condition. A good ph is worth more than any N in an extensive grazing system imo.

 

[Bossfarmer]

Yes its too increase the organic matter first n foremost the bonus ontop is i dont normally apply any bagged P ot K on that land that year neither.
As for the first part normally it has to stay there for atleast 8months worse case or least 3months just as n when i get it & try to just tip it & not touch it until its loaded up again
but sometimes if its dry enough & space is a premium i heap it up.
This spring iam hoping to put sum on stubble that's currently in overwintered stubble.
Then the bulk of the may/june stuff will be tipped on some space in a fallow field to go on it, but you cant do that until mid August.

roughly how much per acre will you save on those fields not applying bagged p & k? £30/acre?

 

[Zebbedee]

Will it still need lime?


I guess not if it’s just growing wild. Can’t help but wonder if there’s any real future for my busting keen lad.

We have an rspb reserve as neighbours and spread lime for them also some muck

 

[Sharpy]

Lost count of the amount of times I’ve heard “We don’t need lime, we only grow grass”

According to estate records when they were enclosing ground round here and bringing it all into production, draining wee lochs, cutting down scrub etc in the late 1700s they were applying 10t to the acre of lime, brought in by horse and cart. This wouldn't be finely ground and I wonder if this has finally been used up? Would explain a lot.

 

[Bobthebuilder]

My 2mins worth if it means anything.
Ive just done back of Fag Packet maths right on my acres of arable am roughly at £34/ac for MOP/TSP raw material costs ok for this year ahead
its all spread at 24m two trips job done, all vari rate on proper soil maps done via SOILQUEST/RHIZA
they know the indices going back 6years now. So its put where it needs to be poss the least wastefull way of using this product id say.
So lets switch back to applying good old cattle muck everywhere & mind id need some amount of tonnage of that
lets be kind to the land & put it on at 10t/ac being quite safe here. 20t/ac is where it needs too be really
that's actually a dearer exercise when you add in all the machinery work to remove it out the sheds heap it up/ reload it/spread it ect etc & boy you can put sum ruts in if your not careful
& anything i apply muck too here is ploughed i can assure you.
Now before i get shot down ive been down the lets skip a year & put no P&K on we did it coz whenever it was guessing 12-14 year ago it got to silly money someone will know the prices.
& the crop from it was deffo thinner, 4years after the original deep soil scans then full zone sampling iam now using slightly less P&K year on year.
so who is right or wrong?
I do use some cattle muck but only on about 50ac annually max. there just aint enough cattle to supply me with all the muck in the world around these parts.
and would i like to handle 5000t yearly err no thanks. its a massive amount of graft when the stuff out the bag is a one man job & all done in about 3 full days
Yes ive used Hen pen, it has its issues & with no real availability locally its quite pricey as it has too be hauled a fair distance. so for now until a more local supply is found its not being used.
its like rocket fuel mind.

That lovely shed of yours could easily house 100 head of cattle over winter B&B getting £££ for their keep and also getting the muck as well but for some reason you don't bother