Arable producers reverting to a mixed farming

[Fish]

Having watched some of my near neighbors chase 8 wild limmy heifers all over the local area for 2 days this week, I , for one, will not be going back in to cattle any time soon.
I can remember almost a thousand head on this place, it was a great day when the last one charged up the ramp into the truck.

 

[Bossfarmer]

The business as a whole is in better shape since we stopped growing potatoes. Much easier to control costs and less chance to lose a fortune in a bad year.

The cattle make use of existing infrastructure and family labour. They also share most of their equipment with arable side of business.

Potatoes done well should be more profitable but you need to be small scale and self contained with machinery and labour or large scale with lots of equipment and staff. You need great attention to detail, good contacts and good luck. You also need the ability to withstand a bad year when you could lose £1000+ per acre.

i hear branstons are only giving out contracts to 2000t a year growers now and forcing them to build coldstores, will you just rent the tattie ground out now?

 

[KennyO]

i hear branstons are only giving out contracts to 2000t a year growers now and forcing them to build coldstores, will you just rent the tattie ground out now?

It has been rented out for 5 years now.

 

[KennyO]

Re cattle behind a wire. This is what you end up doing on a Sunday morning. Its actually the back fence they have broken.

 

[teslacoils]

As an arable farmer, all the animal options I have looked at would be well and truly in a shed! However, current prices for sheds and staff really make me think putting the same money into a flat in london and going to do the night security shift down the road at £29 an hour would be better all round.

 

[DrWazzock]

When I look back, dad had half the shed floor space yet the same acreage with half cereals 50 fat beast sold per year after buying in week old calves. He had 50 sheep as well. Certainly then the cereal yields were half what they are now and didn't need the storage.

He went all arable when the BSE crisis hit and we went down the road of the "easy" life. The sheep went as well.

By 2005 the arable land was knackered so the sheep came back but 250 breeding ewes instead of 50. Now the cattle are back and we might reduce sheep numbers a bit to balance forage and shed space.

It's easy to blow a whole load of money on elaborate new equipment but with a bit of thought the existing sheds can be adapted and extended a bit and used for different jobs at different times of the year. My view is a shed should be full of something all year round rather than lie idle for long periods.

It can be more physical work especially with the sheep but the cattle job can be largely mechanised without breeding stock.

There is no advice anybody can give that is generally applicable as eveybody's situation is so much different but bring the stock back in a careful and measured way feels right here.

 

[ollie989898]

As an arable farmer, all the animal options I have looked at would be well and truly in a shed! However, current prices for sheds and staff really make me think putting the same money into a flat in london and going to do the night security shift down the road at £29 an hour would be better all round.

That ain't the Mr Static I used to know.

 

[teslacoils]

That ain't the Mr Static I used to know.

Can't see the point in putting money into a farm just to make more work for myself. If the capital won't pay what a student flat will, and any family labour can't take £15 an hour out then quite frankly all were doing is subsidising Mr Tesco.

I asked the shareholders, ie Mrs teslacoils and the Master and Master teslacoils and they said they wanted a happy daddy who didn't work all the summertime; that they wanted to go on family holidays like normal people; and that they didn't give two craps about all this "doing it to leave something fir the children" as they'd both been put off by now.

Just a new perspective.

 

[ollie989898]

Can't see the point in putting money into a farm just to make more work for myself. If the capital won't pay what a student flat will, and any family labour can't take £15 an hour out then quite frankly all were doing is subsidising Mr Tesco.

I asked the shareholders, ie Mrs teslacoils and the Master and Master teslacoils and they said they wanted a happy daddy who didn't work all the summertime; that they wanted to go on family holidays like normal people; and that they didn't give two craps about all this "doing it to leave something fir the children" as they'd both been put off by now.

Just a new perspective.

I have re-read your post several times now. I must say it has struck a chord with me on a number of levels due to my own personal circumstances and my future intentions. I still can't really 'like' it, however.

Have we really come that far to the point that a family farm isn't really worth the human cost? I find that profoundly sad if true.

 

[DrWazzock]

Can't see the point in putting money into a farm just to make more work for myself. If the capital won't pay what a student flat will, and any family labour can't take £15 an hour out then quite frankly all were doing is subsidising Mr Tesco.

I asked the shareholders, ie Mrs teslacoils and the Master and Master teslacoils and they said they wanted a happy daddy who didn't work all the summertime; that they wanted to go on family holidays like normal people; and that they didn't give two craps about all this "doing it to leave something fir the children" as they'd both been put off by now.

Just a new perspective.

An honest perspective.

 

[teslacoils]

I have re-read your post several times now. I must say it has struck a chord with me on a number of levels due to my own personal circumstances and my future intentions. I still can't really 'like' it, however.

Have we really come that far to the point that a family farm isn't really worth the human cost? I find that profoundly sad if true.

We haven't come far. Directions have just changed. Most families now come from broken homes. Most 12 year olds come home from school and let themselves into an empty house. Etc etc.

I used to think that it was different in farming, that it was somehow better, or more honest work than sitting behind a desk. But the fact is that on many levels it is just sh!t. And the nexus is that by continuing to invest in long term, low return land , or not putting our true costs in, or saying it's fine as it's bought and payed for etc we just tie ourselves in to getting further behind the "others".

What number of farming wives have upped and left for glitzier lives? How many farmers kids would say seeing their father work himself to death has put them off the job? When your child tells you he wishes his daddy wasn't a farmer then it's time to have a serious, serious think about stuff before you shove £500k into some animal project that means not only do you get no summer off, but no weekend off for the next 20 years.

Animals make a better farm there is no doubt. But is that a good enough reason?

Sorry, have I returned bitter and cynical? It's just that I never really sat and thought why am I doing this? Or what or who am I doing it for. You can easily in farming lock yourself into the two fails :

1) Needing staff who's skillset comes at a cost your can't afford, or who don't want to work twelve hours a day, seven days a week because, well, nobody does, and hence you create yourself a "job" but never have time to enjoy it.

2) The true return is wrong, as the value of the investment cannot easily be turned back to cash, or the benefits are so intangible that it becomes a long term project ie 12 hours a day, seven days a week, for 25 years.

So I have been looking at animal options for ages now. It's been very tempting after looking at others farms to write s bloody big cheque for some new sheds. But I've decided to not. I'll probably prevaricate a bit longer, maybe have someone else's sheep on the grass etc. Maybe try s handful of calves under the old lean-to .

I'll use some of the cash to buy my lads a small flat each - the rent for the next ten years can go towards any adventure they want. That's the measure of the investment decision now. Number one - is it going to enhance my *family's* life. Can I justify it to the *shareholders* in my life?

Sorry, well off topic that.

 

[mountfarm]

Evening,
With various issues on our horizons, soil sustainability, less available chemicals, low organic matters etc etc are some presently pure arable operators thinking of introducing livestock back into there enterprises.
There has been some muttering about arable enterprises here in Northeast Scotland looking to get back into cattle and even suckler cows. Some of these places have no had a cleat on them for more than a generation!
So wee survey

The powers that be have asked me to look into a joint venture livestock system. Basically they don’t want to employ any new staff and existing staff are busy with cereals and roots so they want to do a cooperation of some description with us providing the land and cover crops and the livestock, temp fencing and husbandry via somebody else. All I’ve come across so far is livestock people looking for baby sitters for their animals and other than sending them on a lorry want nothing else to do with it all for 50p/week (sheep). Very one sided so we won’t be going any further with it.

 

[Brisel]

The powers that be have asked me to look into a joint venture livestock system. Basically they don’t want to employ any new staff and existing staff are busy with cereals and roots so they want to do a cooperation of some description with us providing the land and cover crops and the livestock, temp fencing and husbandry via somebody else. All I’ve come across so far is livestock people looking for baby sitters for their animals and other than sending them on a lorry want nothing else to do with it all for 50p/week (sheep). Very one sided so we won’t be going any further with it.

Those people do exist. I've had a natter to a couple of folk in here about this kind of venture.

 

[Granite Farmer]

For starters I would take the AHDB figures ( be that for intensive/ extensive etc ) with a large pinch of salt, was only about 5 years ago that they claimed in those figures that the average silage costs for wintering suckler cows indoors for the top 25% of herds was something like £12 head for a 180 day winter, quite clear that is a complete nonsense!

As for extensive finishing, that is fine but you need to put in leys/ have very good grass/ grazing management and need to be targeting a growth rate of 1 kilo head a day, if you cant get the cattle away finished by 24/28 months max at an average liveweight of at least 600 kilo's you will be putting money to the job.

No end of these so called extensive fed/ outdoor 365 days a year cattle in the store markets that are between 24/30 months old but only 350/400 kilos liveweight, complete waste of time and finishers cant do anything with these cattle and they sell for very little money.

Btw I wouldn't take the advice of Ollie on cattle farming as he has never run a cattle herd, what looks good on paper ( which is no doubt what he is referring to quoting on this thread ) very rarely actually works in the real world.

.....

Which reminds me of a thread in the health section on TFF a few weeks ago when Oliie was giving out medical advice to someone ( with no knowledge of that persons medical record ) and telling them to ignore what their consultant was advising them to do ref treatment/ what meds to take etc etc!! And the worse of it is Ollie isn't even a qualified doctor yet he felt on that thread his knowledge was more superior than the patients actual consultant......................................

I often wonder that if I had no sheds but plenty of cattle I'd be selling the calves weaned in Oct/Nov which only leaves the cows to worry about. And cows are a piece of cake to out winter IMO.

 

[l'ordinary bonville]

We used to be mainly dairy and got out 10 years ago, totally cereal cropped now

We also have lots of indoor pigs, up to our NVZ limits

The soil is in far better condition now, both structurally and fertility than when we had grass in the rotation and yields have been maintained.

The only cloud on the horizon is black grass control although we spread it round the farm very well when we had cows. Now just about staying in front using avadex, full pre em, Atlantis where possible and cultural control.

I don't see rotational grass as a real solution. More likely to include spring cropping and cover crops

 

[Bossfarmer]

We used to be mainly dairy and got out 10 years ago, totally cereal cropped now

We also have lots of indoor pigs, up to our NVZ limits

The soil is in far better condition now, both structurally and fertility than when we had grass in the rotation and yields have been maintained.

The only cloud on the horizon is black grass control although we spread it round the farm very well when we had cows. Now just about staying in front using avadex, full pre em, Atlantis where possible and cultural control.

I don't see rotational grass as a real solution. More likely to include spring cropping and cover crops

how could the soil structure be better without grass leys being turned over? have you tested your OM levels?

 

[l'ordinary bonville]

how could the soil structure be better without grass leys being turned over? have you tested your OM levels?

The soil gets every bit as much muck/slurry and more now since we have a lot of pigs

We plough very little, use minimum soil disturbance, LGP tyres, controlled wheelings. fixed position tramlines, incorporate more straw, apply gypsum to high mag soils

We don't spread slurry when it's too wet to travel like we used to on grass, spread much wider etc. We don't make all the compaction from silage operations like we used to.

We don't sow 1st wheats after grass late in the season when it's really too wet but we got an extra 3 weeks grazing

Muck pads are much more controlled since the fields are in arable

No livestock compaction when conditions really are unsuitable for grazing, no more bogs round water troughs

The power harrow is consigned to history

Yes we have tested some fields for OM and surprised at how high. The real indicator though is rooting, ease of cultivations, walking fields in winter and a spade

 

[Pilatus]

We used to be mainly dairy and got out 10 years ago, totally cereal cropped now

We also have lots of indoor pigs, up to our NVZ limits

The soil is in far better condition now, both structurally and fertility than when we had grass in the rotation and yields have been maintained.

The only cloud on the horizon is black grass control although we spread it round the farm very well when we had cows. Now just about staying in front using avadex, full pre em, Atlantis where possible and cultural control.

I don't see rotational grass as a real solution. More likely to include spring cropping and cover crops

Excuse me asking but can explain a bit more about the indoor pig enterprise.If it has already been explained on another thread please can someone direct me to the thread.Many thanks

 

[snarling bee]

Since the loss of one daughter, my wife and I firmly believe that keeping busy has saved us from perpetual grieving. We both do lots on the farm and off it. Having 2 other amazing children has also been a saving grace.
One of our latest projects, contract rearing pigs, has encouraged our daughter to come home to run and manage the unit. You can't put ££ to that. It has also given us a fairly certain income and FYM for our arable land. Working with the family, especially with all hands on deck during the summer, can be very satisfying. We take time to relax and tend to have biannual active holidays rather than a regular 'week in the sun' - can't think of anything worse, but each to their own. The next big holiday will be between batches of pigs, although arable staff are happy to help on an occasional basis.
I believe that FYM has the best balance of OM and nutrients when compared to compost or digestate/slurry.

 

[Daniel]

We haven't come far. Directions have just changed. Most families now come from broken homes. Most 12 year olds come home from school and let themselves into an empty house. Etc etc.

I used to think that it was different in farming, that it was somehow better, or more honest work than sitting behind a desk. But the fact is that on many levels it is just sh!t. And the nexus is that by continuing to invest in long term, low return land , or not putting our true costs in, or saying it's fine as it's bought and payed for etc we just tie ourselves in to getting further behind the "others".

What number of farming wives have upped and left for glitzier lives? How many farmers kids would say seeing their father work himself to death has put them off the job? When your child tells you he wishes his daddy wasn't a farmer then it's time to have a serious, serious think about stuff before you shove £500k into some animal project that means not only do you get no summer off, but no weekend off for the next 20 years.

Animals make a better farm there is no doubt. But is that a good enough reason?

Sorry, have I returned bitter and cynical? It's just that I never really sat and thought why am I doing this? Or what or who am I doing it for. You can easily in farming lock yourself into the two fails :

1) Needing staff who's skillset comes at a cost your can't afford, or who don't want to work twelve hours a day, seven days a week because, well, nobody does, and hence you create yourself a "job" but never have time to enjoy it.

2) The true return is wrong, as the value of the investment cannot easily be turned back to cash, or the benefits are so intangible that it becomes a long term project ie 12 hours a day, seven days a week, for 25 years.

So I have been looking at animal options for ages now. It's been very tempting after looking at others farms to write s bloody big cheque for some new sheds. But I've decided to not. I'll probably prevaricate a bit longer, maybe have someone else's sheep on the grass etc. Maybe try s handful of calves under the old lean-to .

I'll use some of the cash to buy my lads a small flat each - the rent for the next ten years can go towards any adventure they want. That's the measure of the investment decision now. Number one - is it going to enhance my *family's* life. Can I justify it to the *shareholders* in my life?

Sorry, well off topic that.

Sound reasoning, I recall you’ve looked into both pigs and egg production in some detail over the last 3 or 4 years.

It’s drummed into us that if your business isn’t expanding then it’s going backwards. But so what if it is?