Are pure Holsteins coming to an end?

[som farmer]

reading fg this morning, the no1 top hol genomic sire, is plus 50kg fat, pli £878, with all his vital statistics good. This is a perfect example of how holstien breeders have reacted to a changing market, and, by adapting, ensuring the breed continues, quite a few hol bulls feature in the 'grazing' type catalogues, in Ireland, and New Zealand, showing the adaptability, and forward thinking of hol breeders. However, on this farm, we lean heavily towards Friesian, and only use hols on cows either to small, or to up a cows yield.
How ever, if we look at the top 20 genomic bulls for the SCI, they are all holstien, accepting figures are only predictions, where are the br fiesian bulls ? There are only 4 in the top 40. Things are not very different in the top 40 SCI proven bulls, 3 friesians, 14 jerseys, the rest, 23 are holstiens.
Given that friesians are meant to be the 'grazing' breed of the future, and jersey pure or x are going to find an 'anti bias' in future, simply because of the calves. Why havn't the Friesian breeders, been able to breed more genomic bulls ? They all seem to focus on 4 bull families, I accept that their are many less friesians, compared to hols, but the holstiens have been very quick to adjust, and I would love to see more fr available to pick from, rather than use imported semen.

 

[Llmmm]

I'm pretty sure a jersey cow would calve a pure blue calf more easily than a pure blue cow would.

I can't see it happening though and there's nothing wrong with a standard jersey X blue calf anyway. They're easy calving and they finish fine.

Being speaking to some suckler farmers over the past few weeks who are selling weanlings that were purchased from me as jersey blues to foster on to cows there getting 480 to 500 while whitehead calves from friesias are getting arond 400

 

[Llmmm]

reading fg this morning, the no1 top hol genomic sire, is plus 50kg fat, pli £878, with all his vital statistics good. This is a perfect example of how holstien breeders have reacted to a changing market, and, by adapting, ensuring the breed continues, quite a few hol bulls feature in the 'grazing' type catalogues, in Ireland, and New Zealand, showing the adaptability, and forward thinking of hol breeders. However, on this farm, we lean heavily towards Friesian, and only use hols on cows either to small, or to up a cows yield.
How ever, if we look at the top 20 genomic bulls for the SCI, they are all holstien, accepting figures are only predictions, where are the br fiesian bulls ? There are only 4 in the top 40. Things are not very different in the top 40 SCI proven bulls, 3 friesians, 14 jerseys, the rest, 23 are holstiens.
Given that friesians are meant to be the 'grazing' breed of the future, and jersey pure or x are going to find an 'anti bias' in future, simply because of the calves. Why havn't the Friesian breeders, been able to breed more genomic bulls ? They all seem to focus on 4 bull families, I accept that their are many less friesians, compared to hols, but the holstiens have been very quick to adjust, and I would love to see more fr available to pick from, rather than use imported semen.

Yes i think if you had a pure herd of bf you would have a headache picking bulls

 

[dinderleat]

reading fg this morning, the no1 top hol genomic sire, is plus 50kg fat, pli £878, with all his vital statistics good. This is a perfect example of how holstien breeders have reacted to a changing market, and, by adapting, ensuring the breed continues, quite a few hol bulls feature in the 'grazing' type catalogues, in Ireland, and New Zealand, showing the adaptability, and forward thinking of hol breeders. However, on this farm, we lean heavily towards Friesian, and only use hols on cows either to small, or to up a cows yield.
How ever, if we look at the top 20 genomic bulls for the SCI, they are all holstien, accepting figures are only predictions, where are the br fiesian bulls ? There are only 4 in the top 40. Things are not very different in the top 40 SCI proven bulls, 3 friesians, 14 jerseys, the rest, 23 are holstiens.
Given that friesians are meant to be the 'grazing' breed of the future, and jersey pure or x are going to find an 'anti bias' in future, simply because of the calves. Why havn't the Friesian breeders, been able to breed more genomic bulls ? They all seem to focus on 4 bull families, I accept that their are many less friesians, compared to hols, but the holstiens have been very quick to adjust, and I would love to see more fr available to pick from, rather than use imported semen.

There are some 950pli Holstein bulls in the pip line. The trouble with the Friesian breed it’s to small of herd book to compete with the gains the Holstein breed is making but I’m sure the breeders are trying their best to rapidly improve the genetics

 

[vantage]

Funny how some people get uppity about harvesting embryos from a carcass, but will eat it no problem.

 

[O'Reilly]

Funny how some people get uppity about harvesting embryos from a carcass, but will eat it no problem.

It's not what farmers think though is it? It's what the consumer perceives that counts whether it is rooted in the truth or not, same with the carbon thing, milk might be fabulous on a per gram of nutrients, if the figure on the carton doesn't look right/ isn't marketed right, nobody wants milk. If it looks like killing a heifer just for embryos, and it can be spun by the antis to look wrong, there's a few more people buying vegan.

 

[vantage]

isn't marketed right,

That sums it up well.

 

[Bald Rick]

It's not what farmers think though is it? It's what the consumer perceives that counts whether it is rooted in the truth or not, same with the carbon thing, milk might be fabulous on a per gram of nutrients, if the figure on the carton doesn't look right/ isn't marketed right, nobody wants milk. If it looks like killing a heifer just for embryos, and it can be spun by the antis to look wrong, there's a few more people buying vegan.

Where did this “killing heifers” come from?
Surely it’s just egg flushing from the donor mother then mixing in a lab to create an embryo to implant?
I would have absolutely no truck with this if killing was involved

 

[The Agrarian]

reading fg this morning, the no1 top hol genomic sire, is plus 50kg fat, pli £878, with all his vital statistics good. This is a perfect example of how holstien breeders have reacted to a changing market, and, by adapting, ensuring the breed continues, quite a few hol bulls feature in the 'grazing' type catalogues, in Ireland, and New Zealand, showing the adaptability, and forward thinking of hol breeders. However, on this farm, we lean heavily towards Friesian, and only use hols on cows either to small, or to up a cows yield.
How ever, if we look at the top 20 genomic bulls for the SCI, they are all holstien, accepting figures are only predictions, where are the br fiesian bulls ? There are only 4 in the top 40. Things are not very different in the top 40 SCI proven bulls, 3 friesians, 14 jerseys, the rest, 23 are holstiens.
Given that friesians are meant to be the 'grazing' breed of the future, and jersey pure or x are going to find an 'anti bias' in future, simply because of the calves. Why havn't the Friesian breeders, been able to breed more genomic bulls ? They all seem to focus on 4 bull families, I accept that their are many less friesians, compared to hols, but the holstiens have been very quick to adjust, and I would love to see more fr available to pick from, rather than use imported semen.

I've been looking at Holstein catalogues for 30 years. There has never been a time when the top bulls in each catalogue didn't look brilliant. Doesn't mean they turned out that way though. And doesn't alter the crushing fact that the survivability of the breed has plummeted in the last thirty years, with management requirement rising.

That's not the fault of the bull or the breed. As it turns out, the traits that you do want, but haven't tried to select or breed for get left behind. For example fertility. If you told a farmer in 1990 that you need a cow that can breed, they'd have said yes of course. But all cows breed surel It's what they do. Well, apparently not if you leave it out of the selection criteria.

Progress in traits depends upon how many traits you select for. You have 100% selection pressure available. So the more you divide that up with additional traits, the less progress you can hope to make in each trait. Technically, progress in all of the traits should be quite slow now, as there are so many, and so much progress has already been made in production and type.

And one can't help but wonder what we'll look back on in twenty or thirty years time, and kick ourselves for forgetting to include it in the criteria.

 

[Rossymons]

You can only breed for a trait if there is data available to measure and compare within a population. Fertility Index only became available in 2005. Looking at AHDB data now, genetic gain for Fertility has been so great since then that if your herd FI 0 you're in the bottom 25%. That is a huge turnaround and that is only for one trait and one that has very low heritability.

Other traits are now being recorded - maintenance, mastitis resistance, TB resistance - plus soon we'll have what is the holy grail of indexes in the guise of feed conversion efficiency.

The massive losses of health and fitness traits noticed in the Holstein happened shortly after the introduction of PIN. That was more or less the only index we had to measure and compare bulls. Since technology has improved and we're able to measure more and more plus recording of data has become easier more traits will be identified and introduced into breeding tables.

 

[The Agrarian]

Has there been any movement in average actual lifespan?

Or conception rate, or calving interval?

 

[Whitepeak]

Don't think the Holstein will be coming to an end any time soon if trade up at Carlisle today is anything to go by! Average of over 4k!
Although the top price was an AYRSHIRE

 

[Rossymons]

Looking at NMR Top 500 survey and comparing results between 2010 and 2018 every single fertility parameter has improved.

As for longevity that decreased as culling rate has increased. This could mean that with farmers tightening the drain on fertility they have slowed the loss on selling empty cows thus freeing them up to focus on other areas such as poor cell counts, Johnes, poor conformation. I don't know whether these figures include TB culls - I would suspect they dont.

 

[The Agrarian]

I wonder what the increase in the use of fertility programs has contributed to this, for example RMS. I know that our local vet practice has become considerably more focused on fertility work in the last ten years. One would hope that there would be less requirement for forced fertility management with the improved genetics - not less.

 

[Rossymons]

Anything that increases heat detection is going to subsequently increase preg rates. But fertility is affected by so many things other than genetics hence its low heritability.

Programs such as RMS or what we offer through Cogent Precision only respond to what the cows tell us - we can't just magically pull oestrus cycles put of thin air.

Sometimes intervention is needed - cystic cows, dirty cows etc - else more cows would be leaving the herd involuntarily.

 

[som farmer]

I wonder what the increase in the use of fertility programs has contributed to this, for example RMS. I know that our local vet practice has become considerably more focused on fertility work in the last ten years. One would hope that there would be less requirement for forced fertility management with the improved genetics - not less.

we have difficulty in when to AI our xbreds, we now serve on strong bullers, if they are still strong next day we serve again, some are still bulling on day 3, but reckon they are over the top then ! I can remember going out at 10/11.00 at night, to catch bullers, or watching the yard quietly during the day, no need for that now !

 

[Serup]

Where did this “killing heifers” come from?
Surely it’s just egg flushing from the donor mother then mixing in a lab to create an embryo to implant?
I would have absolutely no truck with this if killing was involved

It’s embryos that’s flushed. You make the heifer maturing a lot of eggs by giving injections, and then you inseminate her when she’s in heat. Then 7 days after, you flush the embryos out. That’s why embryos are put in the receipient 7 days after heat.

 

[dinderleat]

I think these beef embryo were harvested from fat beef heifers sent to slaughter so possibly could you get more eggs?

 

[Blue.]

I think these beef embryo were harvested from fat beef heifers sent to slaughter so possibly could you get more eggs?

So being killed anyhow,what's the problem with harvesting the eggs?

 

[More to life]

I think these beef embryo were harvested from fat beef heifers sent to slaughter so possibly could you get more eggs?

I think it’s eggs harvested and fertilized in vitro . This will produce greater numbers, I seem to remember it has a reputation for producing bigger calves.