Are the Aussies been conned?

http://www.charollais.com.au/

Charollais are good sheep as terminal sires.

But not sure I agree with all the above link claims.

They are very prolific though, so much so it is almost a fault, just not enougth effing milk, or rather the teat flow rate, I do think the milk is actually there just takes so long for the lambs to suck it that the ewes get sore teats.


They are prolific but the Bleu de maine was very prolific in my experience and also had milk unlike those charolais. Great tup for ewe lambs though.
 
which part don't you belive


Low motality & that Charollais is an alternative to Border Leicester to mate with Merino.

I think Australlia has a dry warm climate so bare lambs at birth perhaps not a problem like it can be in UK or NZ. which would suit Charollais. Also would the near naked ears of Charollais get sun burn/cancer in Australlia?

The meat bit is true though superb carcase & growth rate & easy lambing & active at birth. I can't keep pure breds alive though without warm fully enclosed building in my climate even into May (NZ November).

OK for hoggs but Charollais lambs work their dams very hard always sucking & hungrey. That growth rate has to come from some where in an Australlian dry spell might chew teats off the ewes.
 

JD-Kid

Member
i just don't like the look of them

heard the same about the bare lambs at birth but have not seen them so can't say

ears if bare could get burnt

merino's not knowen for great milking .. alot of border /merino crosses in some areas

myself think the IdF would be a far better cross crossing merinos polworths comebacks corries etc etc , reson i say that is the ewe lambs would have a better market 1/2 breed wool guys don't like pigment in wools any sign of gray skin spots etc deals off
charollais across the more english breeds or highlanders kelso's etc etc
 
As a purchaser of tens of thousands of NZ$ of Aussie Charollais genetics, it is only the dam line statements (on the Charollais Aust. website) that I would query at this time. Our NZ experience has shown that the more pure the Charollais dam becomes the lighter the lamb weaning wts.
Although this is of little concern to the commercial farmer who is using the Charollais as a 100% terminal sire, it is disappointing for Charollais breeders.
We have over 400 breeding females now (after severe culling) ranging from half (out of Poll Dorset x Texel) to pures. Pure ewe hoggets can only rear one lamb and some pure mature ewes make a poor job of twins. Therefore it is our intention to keep selecting breeding females on SIL's Maternal Weaning Wt eBV as this will give us the best opportunity to retain some of the PD milkiness genetics in the "kiwi-ised" Charollais. The charollais shape and gradable growth to heavy weights is a very dominant trait, therefore I see no reason to go pure.
We have only used felty eared and well woolled Charollais in the Charollais NZ flock. All pinky/bare sheep are culled. So far the survival out of PD x T ewes has been as good as Texel out of PD ewes, despite seasons of extremes (2010, 1.2 million lambs perished in sourthern NZ during 10 days of worst lambing in living memory). These sheep are all lambed outdoors at 1000 ft asl.
Skin thickness is also graded on those animals more pure than halves on a score of 1 - 5 when the lambs are ultra sound scanned for eye muscle and fat depth. A wide variation exists allowing for culling and sire selection, even in the imported pures. Southdowns had no variation, all were poor therefore no opportunity to select.
It pays to address the weakest link for the commercial farmer in every breed. For NZ it was the Charollais reputation for survival in the UK. We are confident it will not be the issue we first thought. Maybe the lack of milk will be, but I doubt that the Charollais will be used in NZ as part of a maternal cross or mix as it is too big when mature and not enough fleece for a profitable wool return.
However in Australia it may be different, but no Aussie meat processor pays on carcass meat yield, just weight. So growth is the be all and end all. Now more Dorper studs than Merino studs indicating a rapid change in the Aussie sheep industry against wool in favour of more and heavier lambs.
 
Had a Char Ram years ago when I had sheep, Easily lambed wee Gremlin looking things, and lambs sold off their mothers weighed like concrete.

On the other hand, they were too bare skinned for bad weather, and the lambs went very dry and hard when weaned.

Kept ewe lambs one year but even when mature they would always be about 1/2 condition score lower then Suffolk X or Texel X flock mates, without any extra benefits.
 
Interesting that they said that "he was surprised at the DNA results which showed that half the animals tested had the highest possible score for cold tolerance. This suggests they are hardier than would be expected in a terminal sire breed."
I'm not sure how other breeds test or how GOs Charlies have tested but I would have said that only half testing with with the A gene was quite bad. Nearly all my Finns carry the A gene, just the odd animal shows up with a B gene and never had a C.
 

Tim W

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Wiltshire
Dan, what (if any) is the proven correlation between skin /sub cutaneous fat depth and the presence of cold tolerance genes? Do you know?
 

andybk

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Mendips Somerset
would agree with most of GOs post , certainly with regard the pd x chars , I will say though from 30+ years experience , many of the balder ones tend to be the most muscular early finishers and better graders (the leicester genes ) and used over dorset type ewes dont tend to pass on that open short coat much , though would say they need to be lambed indoors , once dry rarely any issues and we are at 750' + and were lambed in nov and kept on the hill on dairy grass over winter we never lost anymore than our traditional suffolk x .
at one point there was a band of french breeders (K2 ,A19 ) that bred for milk yeild , UPRA did record for it ,selecting females on 8 week weights of offspring , and did have good success , they did make good mothers,
Milk yeild is a big concern and our breeds weak point , which wouldnt be so bad if the breed wernt so naturally prolific , that said you wont get growth and muscle from nothing , i have always said the real limiter with regard pushing forward for recorded growth is the milking ability of the ewe , and the reason so many in the breed and using embryo transfer into milking breeds of ewes and even then only raising one lamb which as far as i can see is cheating the system , If the breed is to move forward milking should be part of the EBV recording system and only pure ewes used .
 
Dan, what (if any) is the proven correlation between skin /sub cutaneous fat depth and the presence of cold tolerance genes? Do you know?
None as far as I know. The cold tolerence genes of course are only one part of lamb survival. At least one of the genes is strongly correlated to growth rate. I believe (and I may be wrong) that the genes tested for are involve somewhere in fat mobilisation.
 

Tim W

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Wiltshire
Is that a positive correlation with growth?

So any effect these genes may have on tolerance to cold at birth may be mitigated or over powered by animals having a thick or thin skin (subcutaneous fat covering)
I know that measurement of skin depth is often used as a (crude?) estimation of overall body fat levels which may also be one good indicator of cold tolerance
If this is the case (hypothesising here)then measuring skin depth would be another easy way of looking at cold tolerance?
Wonder what the link is (if any) between skin depth at birth and at 8 weeks?
 

JD-Kid

Member
Is that a positive correlation with growth?

So any effect these genes may have on tolerance to cold at birth may be mitigated or over powered by animals having a thick or thin skin (subcutaneous fat covering)
I know that measurement of skin depth is often used as a (crude?) estimation of overall body fat levels which may also be one good indicator of cold tolerance
If this is the case (hypothesising here)then measuring skin depth would be another easy way of looking at cold tolerance?
Wonder what the link is (if any) between skin depth at birth and at 8 weeks?

yep if they die they tend to have low growth rates

lamb them out side for a few years tend to find start to get a higher % of A's 3-4 years down the track most of GO's will be A's if he can lamb during storms that will speed it up quite a bit too
 

andybk

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Mendips Somerset
Thing is if you want to grow 4t wheat to the acre , you have to put more effort and or inputs in to get it out , Charollais will never be an easy care breed , though they have a will to live , med bone structure and triangular shape with narrow heads and shoulders ;) giving rise to easy lambing (texel crossers within our breed take note !),and a fantastic carcase , you will spoil the fantastic gains you can get from their genetics to try and make them otherwise , there are plenty of arable and livestock farms about with avalible sheds and labour to get the best out of them and are willing to put in the extra ,
If you lamb outside , or want a easier less involved time try something else there are plenty of breeds out there , but in other ways it will cost .
 

JD-Kid

Member
once they are on the ground then the gains from geans will still be there tho andy all the traits you are saying are suited to eazy care just need to get up and get going quicker a bit tougher at birth

like any think 5% of the flock take 99% of the time sort out the 5% and sheep farming can move forward guys running bigger flocks with better returns
 

Ianmcd

Member
Hi
I am involved in farming the largest flock of Charollais in Australia along with my business partner. Re your comments: Ears - no more sunburn than other breeds. But sure we do see a few but not a significant problem. Maternal qualities. Any terminal sire breed introduced into Australia or NZ from pretty well any other western country struggles initially when thrown outside and left to get on with it, which is what we have done with ours. The best survive and the rest are culled. We lamb outdoors in June - August and our losses are between 8-25%. We are fortunate in that we dont get sleet or snow but we can get 2-3 " rain in 24 hours. Natural selection has dealt and continues to deal with the so called "bald ones" and the progeny of ewes that dont have much milk.

The biggest problem is the lack of milk in about 30% of the ewes which we are dealing with (culling and using ET to multiply the best ewes which can rear more than their bodyweight in lambs by 12 weeks of age at grass, no creep no concentrate).

We have over 400 Charollais x Coopworth ewes and about 100 3/4 Charollais x Coopworth ewes that tail at 160-165% out doors, no creep no concentrate and perform well. The breed does test well for the Cold Tolerance gene. We do lamb in paddocks with shelter belts.
Good Charollais can grow very to about 14 weeks of age. They do have a great carcass that unfortunately we dont get paid for directly in Oz.

Re comparing the Charollais with the Border Leicester as a crossing sire over the merino in Oz - a big potential market. Give us 3 more years and we will have rams that far exceed the Border in all traits.

We have Australianized our Charollais by farming them the same way our clients farm their sheep. We cull all sheep that dont measure up. We do ET on the best. No concentrates or creep are fed. Our sheep are expected to perform on pasture, forage / hay. Charollais are non selective grazers which has helped.

Finally, no breed is the most suitable breed to run in every climatic zone of every country. Charollais do suit the Australian climate well and over time will prove to be very popular. They are the most easiest lambing breed (along with the Dorper) and provided their mother (usually a cross bred ewe as they are a terminal sire) has plenty of milk, they can handle the wet and Ozzie cold as well as other breeds.

In NZ many Charollais breeders are grading up. This is a good idea as this enables the "local hardy traits" and maternal traits to be slotted into the breed. Also grading up is cheaper so one is inclined to cull rigorously which is important. Feet have been another issue that we have culled for. Many breeds have feet issues and Charollais are no exception. Culling is dealing with this.

I have issues with British Charollais, primarily that many breeders donot farm their flocks as their commercial customers farm theirs and this is leading the breed down the wrong path and into potential "doom" Laugh you may be always remember what happened to the British Suffolk.
 

andybk

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Mendips Somerset
I have issues with British Charollais, primarily that many breeders donot farm their flocks as their commercial customers farm theirs and this is leading the breed down the wrong path and into potential "doom" Laugh you may be always remember what happened to the British Suffolk.

exactly , and one that i hope breeders remember when their all on the breed fest next saturday ,many good sheep spoiled by over feeding and wrong diet .
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
Milk yeild is a big concern and our breeds weak point , which wouldnt be so bad if the breed wernt so naturally prolific , that said you wont get growth and muscle from nothing , i have always said the real limiter with regard pushing forward for recorded growth is the milking ability of the ewe , and the reason so many in the breed and using embryo transfer into milking breeds of ewes and even then only raising one lamb which as far as i can see is cheating the system , If the breed is to move forward milking should be part of the EBV recording system and only pure ewes used .

But it is part of the Signet system Andy, it's an 8 wk ebv, the same as the weighing in France. You can choose to select on 8 wk wt, even in terminal sire recording. I would suggest that, although milking ability certainly makes life easier for the ram breeders, it is very much a secondary trait for terminal sire selection.

As for using recips, assuming honesty on the part of the breeder, the lambs are recorded as being reared as singles or twins, and on recipient ewes, so that particular management effect is taken account of within BLUP. One might suggest that having data recorded on the performance of more full sibs, as results from ET, would increase the accuracy & reliability of their figures.:)
 

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