Are the Aussies been conned?

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
I have issues with British Charollais, primarily that many breeders donot farm their flocks as their commercial customers farm theirs and this is leading the breed down the wrong path and into potential "doom" Laugh you may be always remember what happened to the British Suffolk.

Can I come and be your tech when you do the Charollais AI's this year please Ian? :D
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
Thing is if you want to grow 4t wheat to the acre , you have to put more effort and or inputs in to get it out , Charollais will never be an easy care breed , though they have a will to live , med bone structure and triangular shape with narrow heads and shoulders ;) giving rise to easy lambing (texel crossers within our breed take note !),and a fantastic carcase , you will spoil the fantastic gains you can get from their genetics to try and make them otherwise , there are plenty of arable and livestock farms about with avalible sheds and labour to get the best out of them and are willing to put in the extra ,
If you lamb outside , or want a easier less involved time try something else there are plenty of breeds out there , but in other ways it will cost .

One of the reasons that I switched my commercial flock to outdoor lambing, was the number of my ram customers that had been successfully doing so for several years, in large commercial flocks of up to 3000 ewes. My 'bottom end' Highlanders are lambing outdoors to a Charollais, and we don't lose any more, or have any more lambing troubles, than with the 'pure' Highlanders (if there is such a thing).

I expect the lambs to grow and finish of forage, which I suspect they must eat more of, but no other extra time or inputs should be required. In fact, you could argue that a slower growing animal will be around longer, so requiring fodder for longer, an extra drench or two, and maybe concs to finish after the forage quality has declined in the Autumn? That's not to mention the bigger carbon footprint nonsense.......
 

andybk

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Mendips Somerset
But it is part of the Signet system Andy, it's an 8 wk ebv, the same as the weighing in France. You can choose to select on 8 wk wt, even in terminal sire recording. I would suggest that, although milking ability certainly makes life easier for the ram breeders, it is very much a secondary trait for terminal sire selection.

As for using recips, assuming honesty on the part of the breeder, the lambs are recorded as being reared as singles or twins, and on recipient ewes, so that particular management effect is taken account of within BLUP. One might suggest that having data recorded on the performance of more full sibs, as results from ET, would increase the accuracy & reliability of their figures.:)


thanks i will look harder at that trait when i look at rams in the future , if as we do ,you tend to rear the flock on a commercial basis a decent milk yeild is paramount to future ewe replacements , my concern over recips is the fact that the further you move away from a natural lambing you can jeopardize the national breed flock ,If breeder a has an extreem trait like muscularity he wishes to multiply all fine and good but a severe detrimental issue like milk yeild could accompany it , a large number of these offspring are then sold at the autumn female sales and the genie is out the bottle , under natural service this would be found out before to much damage is done, pays to tread very carefully with ET .
 

Ianmcd

Member
The 8 wk weight is much more relevant in March - April lambing flocks where ewes are only on grass (no concentrates) and lambs are NOT receiving any creep. I dont think UK farmers are using ET just because the Charollais ewes often dont milk well, December lambing flocks counter this poor milking with the very high quality creep feeds available (which I dont use with my Charollais in Australia or NZ). ET is used to increase the number of lambs from "special" ewes.
 

JD-Kid

Member
If you want milk buy a maternal breed, if you want meat buy a meat producing terminal sire and cross the two. Dont compromise either. Very little does everything.
ummmm pollies are great milkers and meat breed suffolk ewes have seen milk well some texels etc etc

depends on whos been selecting and for what small studs not eneff numbers useing ET like Ian's saying can grow out studs quite quick useing standard ewes

but then again it's a trate one breeder maybe looking for in the case of duel breed sheep some may have a higher intrest in wool or a wool type due to snow scrub rainfall etc etc others lambing % , some weight gains, health probs etc
 

easyram1

Member
Location
North Shropshire
thanks i will look harder at that trait when i look at rams in the future , if as we do ,you tend to rear the flock on a commercial basis a decent milk yeild is paramount to future ewe replacements , my concern over recips is the fact that the further you move away from a natural lambing you can jeopardize the national breed flock ,If breeder a has an extreem trait like muscularity he wishes to multiply all fine and good but a severe detrimental issue like milk yeild could accompany it , a large number of these offspring are then sold at the autumn female sales and the genie is out the bottle , under natural service this would be found out before to much damage is done, pays to tread very carefully with ET .

I would agree 100% with your concerns about the potential pitfalls of ET and the associated use of recipients. Without pointing at any particular breed there is a real issue I believe when a pedigree flock owner has a bigger flock of recipients than of his pedigree ewes and this is certainly happening in more than one breed currently. There is also an issue when ET is used on ewes that for example have lost udders or have found to be difficult to lamb. Allied to this is the readiness of breeders to remove one of a pair of twins to a milk machine when the ewe has insufficient milk. All these dodges may have short term advantages for the individual breeder but long term are very bad for the relevant breed and indeed are ultimately bad for the sheep industry as they result in too much unintentional use of non functional sheep. The real problem as I see it is that this view is pretty widespread on the different forums but out in the big wide world of sheep breeding too many people rely on their eyes rather than their brains. As "Weeman" mentioned elsewhere the power lies in the power of the buyer's cheque book and the sooner they use that power the better it will be for the whole of the sheep industry.
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
there is a real issue I believe when a pedigree flock owner has a bigger flock of recipients than of his pedigree ewes and this is certainly happening in more than one breed currently.

Funnily enough, that is something my shearing guys suggested just a couple of weeks ago, as they had seen it done elsewhere. Keep 10-20 of the very best ewes and flush them. Only have a few of the ignorant, pig headed buggers to work with then, but still plenty of well (& cheaply) grown rams to sell, and all from the best bloodlines. There's lots to like in that system, and can quite see why it might work.

ET is just another (useful) tool to multiply elite genetics, and certainly not an evil of the industry. Sure, it can multiply bad genes rapidly too (was P.Prelude used much for ET?;)), but it can also multiply up good genetic lines too. My current main stock sire was born as a result of a ewe lamb flushing program, and I believe there are a fair number of NZ Texels produced using the same tool.

As with most tools, they are only 'bad' if not used properly, IMO.:)
 

easyram1

Member
Location
North Shropshire
Funnily enough, that is something my shearing guys suggested just a couple of weeks ago, as they had seen it done elsewhere. Keep 10-20 of the very best ewes and flush them. Only have a few of the ignorant, pig headed buggers to work with then, but still plenty of well (& cheaply) grown rams to sell, and all from the best bloodlines. There's lots to like in that system, and can quite see why it might work.

ET is just another (useful) tool to multiply elite genetics, and certainly not an evil of the industry. Sure, it can multiply bad genes rapidly too (was P.Prelude used much for ET?;)), but it can also multiply up good genetic lines too. My current main stock sire was born as a result of a ewe lamb flushing program, and I believe there are a fair number of NZ Texels produced using the same tool.

As with most tools, they are only 'bad' if not used properly, IMO.:)

I would agree fully with your last sentence about proper use. Prelude was not used over a lot of ET ewes as at that time ( 20 years ago when he was sold ) the Suffolk Society only allowed 2 ewes to be flushed per year per flock. The real issue with the "overuse" of Prelude was that he was used very heavily for AI in his three owners flocks all of whom were all having a very successful run at that time. Subsequently there was a massive use of his sons and grandsons throughout the breed allied to lots of "linebreeding" that many felt resulted in much too narrow bloodlines.

Yes we are doing lots of Eting of our NZ Texels just as we did with our NZ Suffolks purely as a general multiplication exercise. This will be the first year that we do not ET any NZ Suffolk or Sufftex ewes as we will have about 350 to go to the ram this autumn. As we only had 10 females born in 2007 ( our first crop ) it will be obvious that the use of ET has been massively important to us in terms of growing numbers. So whilst this makes me sound like a bit of a hypocrite I would still claim that flushing non functional ewes for a short term gain will lead to a very rapid route downhill particularly if the resulting progeny have widespread use in a typical pedigree pyramid
 

andybk

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Mendips Somerset
I would agree fully with your last sentence about proper use. Prelude was not used over a lot of ET ewes as at that time ( 20 years ago when he was sold ) the Suffolk Society only allowed 2 ewes to be flushed per year per flock. The real issue with the "overuse" of Prelude was that he was used very heavily for AI in his three owners flocks all of whom were all having a very successful run at that time. Subsequently there was a massive use of his sons and grandsons throughout the breed allied to lots of "linebreeding" that many felt resulted in much too narrow bloodlines.

Yes we are doing lots of Eting of our NZ Texels just as we did with our NZ Suffolks purely as a general multiplication exercise. This will be the first year that we do not ET any NZ Suffolk or Sufftex ewes as we will have about 350 to go to the ram this autumn. As we only had 10 females born in 2007 ( our first crop ) it will be obvious that the use of ET has been massively important to us in terms of growing numbers. So whilst this makes me sound like a bit of a hypocrite I would still claim that flushing non functional ewes for a short term gain will lead to a very rapid route downhill particularly if the resulting progeny have widespread use in a typical pedigree pyramid

that was the point i was trying to make , and along with ians comment over december flocks using high quaily creep as a replacement for normal milking , the problem with this its these ET and december flocks that tend to control the future of the breed , there wont be many traditionally reared lambs at worcester next saturday (even with access to some creep), Then down the line i,m trying to breed a grass grown ram lamb and am having difficulty in sourcing rams, to breed ewes that will at least rear 1.6% lambs and have decent conformation for my customers .They are building a lot of work into my simple system , i never remember having many problems with lactation from all the french rams we bought in nearly 20 years .
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
that was the point i was trying to make , and along with ians comment over december flocks using high quaily creep as a replacement for normal milking , the problem with this its these ET and december flocks that tend to control the future of the breed , there wont be many traditionally reared lambs at worcester next saturday (even with access to some creep), Then down the line i,m trying to breed a grass grown ram lamb and am having difficulty in sourcing rams, to breed ewes that will at least rear 1.6% lambs and have decent conformation for my customers .They are building a lot of work into my simple system , i never remember having many problems with lactation from all the french rams we bought in nearly 20 years .

You're probably right about Worcester. My own lambs destined for that sale have had a bit of feed, and they will still look small by comparison, despite some decent growth rate ebvs. I really don't know how some people get their sheep to eat quite so much, never mind the rights and wrongs of high conc diets.(n)

On your last point, when we first used Charollais rams in 1989, we were so impressed by the progeny that we kept 300 crossbred ewe lambs back the following year. Those rams were fairly 'French' in breeding, but I still culled out a lot of those ewes because of lack of milk. It's certainly not a new phenomenon.

Of sheep I know of, that have records, the maternal ebv is not a bad measure of milking ability, once a line has plenty of daughters in production. Another place where ebvs tell you an awful lot that you really can't tell by looking.;) The only other way is to ask the breeder, but the vast majority of pedigree breeders in this country have small flocks and no 'proper' (maternal line) sheep to compare them to, so a ewe that does gives more than the dribble her flockmates give, can be seen as a good milker.:rolleyes: Or of course you could always measure the length of the ears or neck. Always good measures of milking ability. :whistle:
 

sheepwise

Member
Location
SW Scotland
I would agree 100% with your concerns about the potential pitfalls of ET and the associated use of recipients. Without pointing at any particular breed there is a real issue I believe when a pedigree flock owner has a bigger flock of recipients than of his pedigree ewes and this is certainly happening in more than one breed currently. There is also an issue when ET is used on ewes that for example have lost udders or have found to be difficult to lamb. Allied to this is the readiness of breeders to remove one of a pair of twins to a milk machine when the ewe has insufficient milk. All these dodges may have short term advantages for the individual breeder but long term are very bad for the relevant breed and indeed are ultimately bad for the sheep industry as they result in too much unintentional use of non functional sheep. The real problem as I see it is that this view is pretty widespread on the different forums but out in the big wide world of sheep breeding too many people rely on their eyes rather than their brains. As "Weeman" mentioned elsewhere the power lies in the power of the buyer's cheque book and the sooner they use that power the better it will be for the whole of the sheep industry.

In the heyday of the Border Leicester breed ,which were crossed with blackface ewes to produce greyfaces,top Border breeders would often dispose of a twin ewe lamb to give a good tup lamb all the milk.Then they wondered why their breed developed a reputation as poor milkers and were superseded by the blueface to produce the mule.
 

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