Are their any other zero till drills (with a similar tine as used on the Amazone Condor drill) available in the uk?

[Will7]

If you have black grass and going tine drill do you go slower to reduce soil movement?

Does that mean we should go "American" and have much wider drills running at 7kph rather than the more "European" at least 10kph?

I have blackgrass and an 8m seedhawk on 520ha and have found 7kmhr to be perfect. If the coulter is following the ground in a steady undulating manner that is perfect, if I go much faster the movements become more pronounced and vicious which basically means I am not packing the seed because there is air between the soil and tyre.

Wear rates drop considerably at these speeds.

There is also a correlation with speed and soil movement. I aim for an unrelenting small bow wave of tilth in front of each tine, speed up and this becomes more erratic with more clod being brought up.

 

[Brisel]

There are only two proper no till drills on the market. CS and Sly (Horizon or whatever they are called now).

Also remember that a bought and paid for plough costs metal only. A bought and paid for combi drill costs metal only.
A father and son team who put all their living costs through the business are cheap labour.

I’m not advocating the approach, merely saying that those setups are not going to increase costs just to get into no till because it’s trendy. They have a tried and tested system that pays well. I’ve neighbours doing just this. 15yrs ago they had 450 acres. Today 950 acres. They’ve bought the balance without outside money. They start ploughing and drilling in October and finish in April with roughly a 50:50 winter/spring rotation. They aim to cover about 60 acres per week minimum and go about it in a very leisurely way. 2 x 200hp tractors, 5F plough, 4m combi drill, 24m mounted sprayer, 6m paddle rolls, 2 x 14t grain trailer. Hired combine, 3t telehandler, hedgecutter.
If they swapped to no till all they will loose is the plough because they still need two tractors for grain haulage. All machinery is bought and paid for. They replace things rarely but when they do they write a cheque out for it there and then.

Bought and paid for = depreciation. If their system works for them, then that's all good. If they are making a profit they are happy with, why change?

You don't like no till. That's fine, but here you are in the DD forum saying why it's inappropriate.

 

[Pilatus]

I have blackgrass and an 8m seedhawk on 520ha and have found 7kmhr to be perfect. If the coulter is following the ground in a steady undulating manner that is perfect, if I go much faster the movements become more pronounced and vicious which basically means I am not packing the seed because there is air between the soil and tyre.

Wear rates drop considerably at these speeds.

There is also a correlation with speed and soil movement. I aim for an unrelenting small bow wave of tilth in front of each tine, speed up and this becomes more erratic with more clod being brought up.

You may have already said but what type of soil(much stone?)are you farming.Thanks.

 

[D14]

Bought and paid for = depreciation. If their system works for them, then that's all good. If they are making a profit they are happy with, why change?

You don't like no till. That's fine, but here you are in the DD forum saying why it's inappropriate.

We DD where we can. My neighbours would put some people’s costs in here to shame.

 

[Brisel]

We DD where we can. My neighbours would put some people’s costs in here to shame.

Are these the neighbours with the plough + combi? Depreciation gets lumpy when buying new occasionally even if you keep it for a long time. A 15 year old plough might cost little on the books but replace it now & it won't be cheap.

There's a lot to be said for refurbishing equipment - I did this to a 10 year old Rapid drill for 15% of the cost of a new one even after paying the dealer to do most of the work. They had to cut the coulter linkages off with oxyacetylene because they were so badly worn. Extensive welding on the frame and most of the hydraulics were resealed. A bargain vs new.

 

[Warnesworth]

We are a mixed farm removing all the straw and returning it back as FYM and DD with a Moores drill.
Was thinking of replacing the Moores drill with a bigger one but might keep it and buy a tine drill
What tine drills do you recommend

Well, therein lies the problem because choice is quite limited but they all work rather well.

So the cheapest option is a Horsch CO or Sprinter on retrofit points such as Metcalfe or Dutch etc etc, many options available...
Metcalfe also do a point for the Simba Freeflow and Amazon Cayena now.

Then there are secondhand Seedhawks if you can find one, chances are it'll be rough though cos the ram bushings are never maintained.

John Dale - a great drill but again rare secondhand.

Or the Rolls Royce as mentioned in the title of this thread, the Condor, but sadly only available in 12 or 15m. Why they don't put that leg onto a smaller drill I don't understand. Currently aware of 2 in the country, soon to be 3.

Definitely keep the Moore and compliment with the tine drill. The perfect combo. Tine is the default drill except where the disc will do a better job.

 

[Warnesworth]

1 like isn't enough for this post, it basically sums up exactly how I feel about a transition to DD, the only difference being I don't have blackgrass to contend with (said whilst firmly grasping the wooden coffee table!)

Asking questions about tine vs disc is just met with "it's not about the drill" by the brethren but it actually does have to be a little bit about the metal bit that puts the seed in the ground, my youtube history this week has been all manor of drills and I agree with you that I think any time drill I've seen has moved too much soil, but the Techmagri looks to move the least soil I've watched, so maybe there is hope for a tine drill. Trying to find second hand options of various systems seems to be a task in itself, is there a special club 2nd hand shop where you need to know the handshake to view the stock list??

As useful as TFF can be, the DD forum can be a very unwelcoming place!

Welcome!

Blackgrass: Narrow tines such as the Condor or the Metcalfe are just 13mm (1/2 wide) spaced at 250mm centres. You really are not moving much soil. I wouldn't worry about that as a problem. Let the CA system and attention to detail deal with the Blackgrass.

If you are starting out I would wholly suggest a tine drill to start with, it will create a little tilth and have a wider window of drilling opportunity than a disc drill, both of which you will need. You will need a disc drill but that comes later once you are drilling into green material (cover).

 

[Warnesworth]

does a Haney test work out soil om via loss on ignition ?

Yes, as well as active carbon through water extract.

 

[Warnesworth]

Being blunt with strangers won't always get you a warm reception. Now I know a bit more about you, let's move on. Thinking of carbon, are you near any open cast coal mine sites?



One for @Warnesworth I'd like to know more too please.

I've had some Solvita tests done. the SOM test used there is Dumas

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Sorry, this is getting a bit off topic, though I do use a tine drill....

I thought DUMAS was for N so had to go away and check and it is for N, but because CO2 is also measured in the DUMAS test I suspect they are then extrapolating the SOM content from the carbon given off in the CO2. I must add this is my conjecture and not fact. It would be worth asking Lancrop if you really want to know. I also suspect they are also using the DUMAS N to calculate the C:N ratio but they don't report the N.
SOM 11.4% really?!

Solvita is interesting because I thought the colourific paddle measurement for CO2 burst had been superceeded by direct CO2 measurement via gas analysis as in Haney.

Some interesting results there @Brisel

 

[Warnesworth]

There are only two proper no till drills on the market. CS and Sly (Horizon or whatever they are called now).

Sorry but I can't agree with that.

 

[Warnesworth]

If you have black grass and going tine drill do you go slower to reduce soil movement?

Does that mean we should go "American" and have much wider drills running at 7kph rather than the more "European" at least 10kph?

Ideally yes.

 

[Brisel]

I thought DUMAS was for N so had to go away and check and it is for N, but because CO2 is also measured in the DUMAS test I suspect they are then extrapolating the SOM content from the carbon given off in the CO2. I must add this is my conjecture and not fact. It would be worth asking Lancrop if you really want to know. I also suspect they are also using the DUMAS N to calculate the C:N ratio but they don't report the N.
SOM 11.4% really?!

Solvita is interesting because I thought the colourific paddle measurement for CO2 burst had been superceeded by direct CO2 measurement via gas analysis as in Haney.

Some interesting results there @Brisel

I'll be brief because this is off topic. Loss on ignition testing in 2015 showed 11.9% OM in that field. Unsurprisingly, it's one of my more productive fields too.

The hard bit is working out what it all means and what to do about it - I'm always learning how to improve it & will test the same spots again in a few years to see the difference, hopefully an improvement.

 

[Will7]

You may have already said but what type of soil(much stone?)are you farming.Thanks.

Not many stones really. Wallasea and Beccles clay.

 

[Will7]

Then there are secondhand Seedhawks if you can find one, chances are it'll be rough though cos the ram bushings are never maintained

The bushes are exactly why they are such a popular drill worldwide. European drills are built to be thrown away like a Chinese washing machine, the seedhawk can be rebuilt time and time again. I rebushed my 8m last autumn all with genuine parts, new bolts in all the pivots, re sealed all the rams and including labour came to £5000ish

 

[l'ordinary bonville]

Here on the Cotswolds where there is more stone than soil , a tined drill is a must and 7kph is plenty fast enough, to allow tines to gently push stone to one side and deposit seed in what little soil there is or ever lightly to be !!!!!!
So here American style is the way to go “wide and slow”.
But most of you are in a completely different situation , so same old story “horse’s for courses”.

I have blackgrass and an 8m seedhawk on 520ha and have found 7kmhr to be perfect. If the coulter is following the ground in a steady undulating manner that is perfect, if I go much faster the movements become more pronounced and vicious which basically means I am not packing the seed because there is air between the soil and tyre.

Wear rates drop considerably at these speeds.

There is also a correlation with speed and soil movement. I aim for an unrelenting small bow wave of tilth in front of each tine, speed up and this becomes more erratic with more clod being brought up.

Thanks both.
You've just added 2 metres to my quotation, lending itself to CTF also

 

[Will7]

Thanks both.
You've just added 2 metres to my quotation, lending itself to CTF also

Always pleased to be of assistance. Anything else I can help with just give me a shout!!!!

 

[Pilatus]

Thanks both.
You've just added 2 metres to my quotation, lending itself to CTF also

Sorry about that but nothings new , as I adopted the same approach years ago, when purchasing a 6mtr Accord drill when I was told , a 4mtr Accord would be adequate as long as I went fast enough , speed and planting in “Very stony” soils do not go hand in hand , whether drilling conventionally as back then or zero till now.
That said the Accord was the worst drill I had for even plant distribution, its replacement the Amazone Rpd following close behind the plough the best.
Move on to 2020, I am sure a wide narrow tined zero till drill “driven slowly” is the way I would have gone.

 

[Clive]

Thanks both.
You've just added 2 metres to my quotation, lending itself to CTF also

I would agree with them both, a tine drill is only low disturbance if you keep the speeds dow, wider and slower is best

 

[Clive]

1 like isn't enough for this post, it basically sums up exactly how I feel about a transition to DD, the only difference being I don't have blackgrass to contend with (said whilst firmly grasping the wooden coffee table!)

Asking questions about tine vs disc is just met with "it's not about the drill" by the brethren but it actually does have to be a little bit about the metal bit that puts the seed in the ground, my youtube history this week has been all manor of drills and I agree with you that I think any time drill I've seen has moved too much soil, but the Techmagri looks to move the least soil I've watched, so maybe there is hope for a tine drill. Trying to find second hand options of various systems seems to be a task in itself, is there a special club 2nd hand shop where you need to know the handshake to view the stock list??

As useful as TFF can be, the DD forum can be a very unwelcoming place!

of course the drill is important but it should not be the first consideration

for a tine drill the disturbance is related to speed unlike a disc where speed makes much less difference

the lower disturbance tine drills I’ve seen often have a disc ahead of the tine to cut the path and reduce soil boiling up. Vikar maybe worth a look as it has this layout

other than that if a tine is the choice for your soil type then as others have said go wide and slow vs fast and narrow to reduce disturbance

 

[Suddy]

That's really interesting. Mainly because lots of people already have a rapid.

How do you make this work? Just direct in? A light cultivation first? Only certain soil types? Can you close the slots ok? Through cover crops?

Sorry to ask so many questions, but you've really got my attention with this.

Presumably you don't feel the rapid can do everything, as you have another drill as well.

Thanks.

It’s a lot to write with a iphone especially on the tractor. I’m quite happy to speak to anyone. I can pm my number or you pm yours. I’ll post something when I get a chance.