Autosteer and pylons

[neilo]

Obviously it's a driver error, but to bracket that as being equivalent downright stupidity is pretty disrespectful without knowing the facts of the matter.

Too many people on this thread who seem to take the view that accidents only happen to other people (most of whom are inferred to be brain dead idiots). The fact that the operator in this instance was driving an expensive bit of kit seem to make them all the more blameworthy. Why?

Plenty of dog and stick farmers get their arms wound off by unguarded PTOs or break their backs falling through roofs that have been lacking maintenance for years without proper safety equipment. Accidents happen to everyone, and they happen to you and me too. A little bit less blame and a little bit more humility wouldn't go amiss here.

The poster of the video is apparently blaming it on the auto steer though? It is operator error, no ifs or buts, for whatever reason.

It makes no difference whether he was driving a MF35 with an 8’ ring roll on the back, or a Quadtrac with a 12m cultivator behind, he drove straight into a big pylon in the middle of a field. The size and value of the equipment is irrelevant.
Whether the operator was tired, on his phone, watching porn, or whatever, is no relevant. It’s still down to the operator, not the auto-steer system that the OP was blaming.

And yes, of course accidents happen to everyone. If I ever have a bit of a ding, obviously on my ‘dog & stick’ kit, I curse and kick my own arse for being stupid. I don’t seek to blame it on a bit of kit that allowed me to take my eye off the ball.

 

[Irish NZ]

Tractor driving in a spot like that is mind numbingly boring at the best of times.

Is it that hard to believe he fell asleep? I probably would have.

Sh1t happens

 

[kiwi pom]

I reckon most folk are really thinking there but for the grace of God go I.

Official verdict: cause of crash was pilot error.

Indeed. Wonder if he or she got the DCM?

 

[Philip Watkins]

Tractor driving in a spot like that is mind numbingly boring at the best of times.

Is it that hard to believe he fell asleep? I probably would have.

Sh1t happens

yes but that can happen without auto steer.

 

[Douglasmn]

I blame the tractor driver. Similarly to how I blame myself when I'm on the tractor seat and make a balls-up. Same as someone mentioned how you blame the farmer for getting tangled up in an unsafe pto shaft. If he had fallen asleep due to working too many hours though then the employer has to take a good chunk of the blame as well. If you have an employee working ridiculous and unhealthy hours to get the job done day in day out then you're not running your business very well. It's no use never accepting responsibility and trying to pass up the blame forever. As has been said, accidents have happened for years without autosteer as well, so I don't see how that makes a difference here.

 

[Douglasmn]

One more question for everyone...what happened to the good old term "tractor driver"? Why is it now that if your tractor is above a certain horsepower and value that you then became a "machinery operator"? If I'm driving a tractor(big/small/expensive/cheap) then surely that makes me a tractor driver. I'll bet if it was a tractor driver on the seat then he'd be blamed for not concentrating and doing his job. When it's a machinery operator though then it's time to pass up the blame to something or someone else! (For reference I think autosteer and sophisticated machinery etc are some of the best advances in farming)

 

[franklin]

Obviously it's a driver error, but to bracket that as being equivalent with 'downright stupidity' is pretty disrespectful without knowing the facts of the matter.

We dont know the facts - that is important. It *looks* like operator error, but if the operator was a student who had worked 80 hours that week etc then you might consider that the responsibility does not lie solely with the operator. The responsibilities of an employer are numerous, especially with things like lone working which is going to be a serious problem in the future - we are asked to text or call our workers who are not in sight every hour or two, so how is that supposed to work in areas with no / poor phone reception? Wont be long until we have to have two people in every cab so one can keep an eye on the one keeping an eye on the computer.

 

[Feldspar]

The poster of the video is apparently blaming it on the auto steer though? It is operator error, no ifs or buts, for whatever reason.

It makes no difference whether he was driving a MF35 with an 8’ ring roll on the back, or a Quadtrac with a 12m cultivator behind, he drove straight into a big pylon in the middle of a field. The size and value of the equipment is irrelevant.
Whether the operator was tired, on his phone, watching porn, or whatever, is no relevant. It’s still down to the operator, not the auto-steer system that the OP was blaming.

And yes, of course accidents happen to everyone. If I ever have a bit of a ding, obviously on my ‘dog & stick’ kit, I curse and kick my own arse for being stupid. I don’t seek to blame it on a bit of kit that allowed me to take my eye off the ball.

I agree that it's not the auto-steer's fault. It was doing exactly as it had been asked to do. If it had suddenly veered off and hit the pylon then maybe (that used to be a worry with the old Trimble EZ steer which would do just that).

I didn't mean to say that you had rubbish kit or something like that, just that accidents happen whether one (not you) is driving a very expensive bit of kit or a hammer and nails.

Personally I find that when using GPS I am actually a lot more awake than when having to steer. I find fatigue sets in way quicker with having to steer, particularly in difficult conditions. As someone said, trying to roll stubbles that have been direct drilled in the dark is a nightmare (literally!). It does allow you to concentrate much more on the job the machine is doing. For example, I was using a Terrastar this season on GPS. You have to tweak the ram settings quite a bit to get a level finish. Because you're doing 17kph if you had to steer you wouldn't get as much chance to look behind you. As it was I could keep fiddling with the settings to make the best job. You did have to be careful though because at that speed the hedge appears very quickly! You know the hedge is there, in the same way that I guess in this case the person was quite aware of the pylon, but it only takes the machine to block momentarily and that diversion of attention to the back rather than the front can cause an accident.

Digressing to another point, someone else picked up on the tendency nowadays for people to be called operators. I don't think that this is quite the same trick pulled by employers of people who just fix vending machines calling them 'engineers' to make their job sound more important than it is. I do think that, particularly with auto-steer, the focus of the job has changed from driving to operating. If you look at this video, for example, which is actualy from Flawborough, you can see just how many things the person in the cab has got to think about.

Although using the steering wheel might not be done as much on other farms, I would argue that it takes just as much, if not more, skill to be able to do what this person is doing here. In this case their main job is not driving so much as operating, hence the reason for the name 'operator'.

 

[Douglasmn]

I agree that it's not the auto-steer's fault. It was doing exactly as it had been asked to do. If it had suddenly veered off and hit the pylon then maybe (that used to be a worry with the old Trimble EZ steer which would do just that).

I didn't mean to say that you had rubbish kit or something like that, just that accidents happen whether one (not you) is driving a very expensive bit of kit or a hammer and nails.

Personally I find that when using GPS I am actually a lot more awake than when having to steer. I find fatigue sets in way quicker with having to steer, particularly in difficult conditions. As someone said, trying to roll stubbles that have been direct drilled in the dark is a nightmare (literally!). It does allow you to concentrate much more on the job the machine is doing. For example, I was using a Terrastar this season on GPS. You have to tweak the ram settings quite a bit to get a level finish. Because you're doing 17kph if you had to steer you wouldn't get as much chance to look behind you. As it was I could keep fiddling with the settings to make the best job. You did have to be careful though because at that speed the hedge appears very quickly! You know the hedge is there, in the same way that I guess in this case the person was quite aware of the pylon, but it only takes the machine to block momentarily and that diversion of attention to the back rather than the front can cause an accident.

Digressing to another point, someone else picked up on the tendency nowadays for people to be called operators. I don't think that this is quite the same trick pulled by employers of people who just fix vending machines calling them 'engineers' to make their job sound more important than it is. I do think that, particularly with auto-steer, the focus of the job has changed from driving to operating. If you look at this video, for example, which is actualy from Flawborough, you can see just how many things the person in the cab has got to think about.

Although using the steering wheel might not be done as much on other farms, I would argue that it takes just as much, if not more, skill to be able to do what this person is doing here. In this case their main job is not driving so much as operating, hence the reason for the name 'operator'.

I call BS on that. The driver in the video has a far easier job than someone in a non air conditioned non full suspension old zetor with an actual gear lever and a grain trailer with a manual door. His wordload is far lower with much LESS to think about. He lines up the tractor, engages the autosteer then monitors the flow of grain using the camera. He'll adjust his speed using the smallest of hand movements on the joystick. That does not sound difficult. The operation in the video is absolutely top class and those guys are clearly very good farmers though, not trying to take anything away from that part at all. The crop looks fantastic as well. To imply that the man on that Fendt seat has a difficult and particularly skilled job is wrong though. An iPad and various other LCDs making everything look nice do not somehow make the job more skilled! Does generally make things much more comfortable and enjoyable though, hence why you'd have far more young people queing up to sit in the Fendt than the Zetor.

 

[Feldspar]

I call BS on that. The driver in the video has a far easier job than someone in a non air conditioned non full suspension old zetor with an actual gear lever and a grain trailer with a manual door. The operation in the video is absolutely top class and those guys are clearly very good farmers though, not trying to take anything away from that part at all. The crop looks fantastic ad well. To imply that the man on that Fendt seat has a difficult and particularly skilled job is wrong though. An iPad and various other LCDs making everything look nice do not somehow make the job more skilled! Does generally make things much more comfortable and enjoyable though, hence why you'd have far more young people queing up to sit in the Fendt than the Zetor.

I would make the distinction between easy / difficult and skilled / unskilled / different skills. The two are separate, so one job might be easier (i.e. more pleasant environment) but require more skills. I'm not saying that in that video that it definitely requires more skills, but I do think it requires a different set of skills which tend more towards operating things rather than driving things. Driving a non-auto steer tractor on a plough and getting the furrow dead straight and everything matching up obviously takes a lot of skill, but so does doing the job in that video. Getting the cart tractors and trailers filled quickly and without spillage, coordinating with the combine to keep it running, coordinating with the carting people and generally getting extremely high output over what I would imagine are quite long days.

I would contrast that job with say what my uncle does. He has a smallish Tucano combine on about 150ha. They unload on the headlands whilst stationary and normally don't go much after it gets dark and tend not to start until late morning (because their storage won't take high moistures). Yes, the cart tractor is a pretty old MF with no aircon and no suspension, and the trailers has a manual tailgate. When you get back to the barn you have to wade around in the grain moving the rather dodgy old pedestals which means you get all dirty. On the other hand, the hours you'd spend in it each day are going to be far less than the above example, you have a lot more time sitting around waiting for the combine to have a rest, and keeping the machine moving every second is not quite so critical because they have plenty of capacity. Sometimes they stop for lunch and life is generally pretty chilled.

On a big outfit, the pressure is a lot, lot higher with a large amount of crop involved (which often will be owned by someone else giving extra responsibility), a much more complex logistical operation, much less downtime throughout the day, and in many cases (at least compared to my uncle) much longer days too. I wouldn't without hesitation say that the chap who drives the grain cart at my uncle's has a much harder job. He might need a good shower when he gets in, but he probably gets in two or three hours earlier than some to have time to do it!

 

[franklin]

The skill is often in the setup of the machine and impliment, rather than the actual steering. And the knowledge of the field.

On a big outfit, the pressure is a lot, lot higher with a large amount of crop involved (which often will be owned by someone else giving extra responsibility), a much more complex logistical operation, much less downtime throughout the day, and in many cases (at least compared to my uncle) much longer days too. I wouldn't without hesitation say that the chap who drivers the grain cart at my uncle's has a much harder job. He might need a good shower when he gets in, but he probably gets in two or three hours earlier than some to have time to do it!

The pressure is not designed to be borne by employee but by the employer. Irrespective of the size of the operation, there is a large burden on the employer to make sure the employee is safe. There is no reason a worker on an 8000ac farm should work more hours than one on an 80ac farm - just hire more staff.

 

[Douglasmn]

I would make the distinction between easy / difficult and skilled / unskilled / different skills. The two are separate, so one job might be easier (i.e. more pleasant environment) but require more skills. I'm not saying that in that video that it definitely requires more skills, but I do think it requires a different set of skills which tend more towards operating things rather than driving things. Driving a non-auto steer tractor on a plough and getting the furrow dead straight and everything matching up obviously takes a lot of skill, but so does doing the job in that video. Getting the cart tractors and trailers filled quickly and without spillage, coordinating with the combine to keep it running, coordinating with the carting people and generally getting extremely high output over what I would imagine are quite long days.

I would contrast that job with say what my uncle does. He has a smallish Tucano combine on about 150ha. They unload on the headlands whilst stationary and normally don't go much after it gets dark and tend not to start until late morning (because their storage won't take high moistures). Yes, the cart tractor is a pretty old MF with no aircon and no suspension, and the trailers has a manual tailgate. When you get back to the barn you have to wade around in the grain moving the rather dodgy old pedestals which means you get all dirty. On the other hand, the hours you'd spend in it each day are going to be far less than the above example, you have a lot more time sitting around waiting for the combine to have a rest, and keeping the machine moving every second is not quite so critical because they have plenty of capacity. Sometimes they stop for lunch and life is generally pretty chilled.

On a big outfit, the pressure is a lot, lot higher with a large amount of crop involved (which often will be owned by someone else giving extra responsibility), a much more complex logistical operation, much less downtime throughout the day, and in many cases (at least compared to my uncle) much longer days too. I wouldn't without hesitation say that the chap who drives the grain cart at my uncle's has a much harder job. He might need a good shower when he gets in, but he probably gets in two or three hours earlier than some to have time to do it!

Still disagree! It's not difficult to sit in a £200k tractor and press buttons. The level of comfort and automation make 16 hours in a tractor like that much easier than 8 hours in an old Zetor. You get paid more for it too because of the longer hours...win win! To emphasise my point: automation reduces workload and lowers the level of skill required. The plus side is that it almost always results in a higher standard of work. To use a different example, which do you think takes more skill: flying an Airbus A320 on an autopilot/autothrottle coupled approach with an automatic landing...or flying a Bomardier Q400 completely raw data manually to a manual landing? The latter, of course. I could put my mum in an A320 simulator and show her which buttons to press and she could land that plane. She would without doubt crash the Q400, probably entering an unrecoverable attitude within around 10 seconds. Why...because the lesser automated method takes a significant amount more skill!

 

[Feldspar]

The skill is often in the setup of the machine and impliment, rather than the actual steering. And the knowledge of the field.



The pressure is not designed to be borne by employee but by the employer. Irrespective of the size of the operation, there is a large burden on the employer to make sure the employee is safe. There is no reason a worker on an 8000ac farm should work more hours than one on an 80ac farm - just hire more staff.

Still disagree! It's not difficult to sit in a £200k tractor and press buttons. The level of comfort and automation make 16 hours in a tractor like that much easier than 8 hours in an old Zetor. You get paid more for it too because of the longer hours...win win! To emphasise my point: automation reduces workload and lowers the level of skill required. The plus side is that it almost always results in a higher standard of work. To use a different example, which do you think takes more skill: flying an Airbus A320 on an autopilot/autothrottle coupled approach with an automatic landing...or flying a Bomardier Q400 completely raw data manually to a manual landing? The latter, of course. I could put my mum in an A320 simulator and show her which buttons to press and she could land that plane. She would without doubt crash the Q400, probably entering an unrecoverable attitude within around 10 seconds. Why...because the lesser automated method takes a significant amount more skill!

I began to type a response to these, but then realised that I didn't care enough about the argument one way or another.

 

[ollie989898]

It is VERY important that you stay in the cab if at all possible in these situations. Even if you jump clear of the machine and are not electrocuted, you can't just walk away- there can be a fatal step between two zones of different voltage potentials in the ground and it might use your legs as a shortcut. I did not know this until discussions on another forum where a guy had been seriously injured from this. If you must move, shuffle your feet.

 

[Pheasant Surprise]

It is VERY important that you stay in the cab if at all possible in these situations. Even if you jump clear of the machine and are not electrocuted, you can't just walk away- there can be a fatal step between two zones of different voltage potentials in the ground and it might use your legs as a shortcut. I did not know this until discussions on another forum where a guy had been seriously injured from this. If you must move, shuffle your feet.

Probably not something you’d want to be in the situation to test out; is it better to shuffle your feet, hop (with both legs together) or just run as fast as you can (I suppose only one foot in contact with the ground). Wet grass or snow could be far worse than dryish ground.

 

[Feldspar]

Probably not something you’d want to be in the situation to test out; is it better to shuffle your feet, hop (with both legs together) or just run as fast as you can (I suppose only one foot in contact with the ground). Wet grass or snow could be far worse than dryish ground.

I was told jump with two feet together. If you lose balance and fall over though...!

 

[Pheasant Surprise]

I was told jump with two feet together. If you lose balance and fall over though...!

That’s how I remember it too, the UKPN guidance seems to have changed to “run like hell”. That’s why I wanted to see if Tom H had any other recommendations from Western Power, other than stay put unless your in immediate danger of being fried or burnt in the cab

 

[Will Wilson]

About the only thing they didn't cover in this film is power lines and Auto steer.

Nightmares all round.

 

[Princess Pooper]

That’s how I remember it too, the UKPN guidance seems to have changed to “run like hell”. That’s why I wanted to see if Tom H had any other recommendations from Western Power, other than stay put unless your in immediate danger of being fried or burnt in the cab

You obviously didn't bother to look at the WPD leaflet I posted a link to.


"If the machine is not operable or cannot be driven clear of the line:


- stay in the cab.

- contact your site manager or us immediately by radio or mobile phone

or as soon as possible by any other method.

- instruct everyone outside the vehicle not to approach it.

- do not exit the cab until given confirmation BY WPD PERSONNEL

that it is safe to do so.

If the machine is inoperable or cannot be driven free and there is risk


of fire or other immediate hazard:

- jump clear of the vehicle, avoiding simultaneous contact with any part

of the machine and the ground.

- try to land with your feet as close together as possible.

- where possible, continue to move away from the vehicle using

“bunny hops” with your feet together until at least 15m from the vehicle.

- instruct other people in the vicinity not to approach the vehicle.

- do not return to the vehicle until given confirmation BY WPD PERSONNEL

that it is safe to do so."

 

[Pheasant Surprise]

You obviously didn't bother to look at the WPD leaflet I posted a link to.


"If the machine is not operable or cannot be driven clear of the line:


- stay in the cab.

- contact your site manager or us immediately by radio or mobile phone

or as soon as possible by any other method.

- instruct everyone outside the vehicle not to approach it.

- do not exit the cab until given confirmation BY WPD PERSONNEL

that it is safe to do so.

If the machine is inoperable or cannot be driven free and there is risk


of fire or other immediate hazard:

- jump clear of the vehicle, avoiding simultaneous contact with any part

of the machine and the ground.

- try to land with your feet as close together as possible.

- where possible, continue to move away from the vehicle using

“bunny hops” with your feet together until at least 15m from the vehicle.

- instruct other people in the vicinity not to approach the vehicle.

- do not return to the vehicle until given confirmation BY WPD PERSONNEL

that it is safe to do so."

Yeh sorry must’ve missed the link. Interesting that they have somewhat different ways of retreating. Bunny hops in the West then versus run away quickly in the East.