autumn re-seeding

this farmer in somerset, always digs a few holes, with a spade, very frequently, here, where the soil pans, you need to know, daft not to, but, we have been caught out, very badly, with 1 field this spring, despite running the subsoiler through the obvious bits. Again, soil testing, actually tells you, what fert etc you need, not what you think you need. But, having been blessed, with poor growth all summer, sim to the previous 2, was beginning to think, it was us. Thankfully, since rain, grass has gone mental, indicating, lack of moisture, so not, all our fault.
Though, when it took over 8 weeks, for rape, or weeds, to germinate, in some patches, quite a few patches, that sort of points that way. Not over sure on the lime amounts, told we needed, and will recheck some. But, we do try hard, to get both soil, and fert, right before reseeding. But, after 3 summers, of having to buy in forage, something has to change, so we are going down the 'drought' root, and trying several different things, we were going to try some 'dry' types of PRG, base, for one, but, can't try everything, or we won't know which has worked/not. Wind, can easily stunt grass/crops, in our block of rape, feeding now, starting at the bottom of the hill 30ins high, reducing to 10/12 ins, in the middle, where it took so long to germinate, back up to 30 ins, at the top, that is on an open, south facing slope, wind dried, i presume ! So Ollie, whatever, one does, with crops, if the weather aint right, your'e knacked.

Sorry, I was under the impression you have had multiple failures over several years rather than just one year.

Some crops are more resistant to prolonged dry weather. If you are windy and dry up a lot then I'd be hesitant to recommend the brassica crops as they don't like it during establishment. I had a client Yeovil direction who was in a rain shadow and even maize was risky there. Autumn sown cereals grew fine though as the roots were already there.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
Full blown ley. View attachment 907201
Apart from disease risk, whats the problem?
Bo one here is that keen on it, the Irish don't mind so much tho
is that a 1p coin ?
why don't we just grow 1 variety of grass ? Many other countries do, for my suspicious mind, do they put lots of varieties in, hoping 1 comes right ? I think growing grass, will become more technical, as time go's on, not sure why, though, i think it should get easier, after all, it grows like a weed here ! Perhaps, the newer varieties, need much more, precision, to produce the results on a field scale, to match the precise trial plots, being told germination rate, in a lab, are not replicated in field, unless perfect conditions, i was certainly shocked, to be told germination, of the newer varieties, if not ideal, could drop to 50%.
 
is that a 1p coin ?
why don't we just grow 1 variety of grass ? Many other countries do, for my suspicious mind, do they put lots of varieties in, hoping 1 comes right ? I think growing grass, will become more technical, as time go's on, not sure why, though, i think it should get easier, after all, it grows like a weed here ! Perhaps, the newer varieties, need much more, precision, to produce the results on a field scale, to match the precise trial plots, being told germination rate, in a lab, are not replicated in field, unless perfect conditions, i was certainly shocked, to be told germination, of the newer varieties, if not ideal, could drop to 50%.
Its a plastic insulator on a hot post
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
Sorry, I was under the impression you have had multiple failures over several years rather than just one year.

Some crops are more resistant to prolonged dry weather. If you are windy and dry up a lot then I'd be hesitant to recommend the brassica crops as they don't like it during establishment. I had a client Yeovil direction who was in a rain shadow and even maize was risky there. Autumn sown cereals grew fine though as the roots were already there.
last 3 yrs, have been chronic, as in serious amount, to whatever is normal year, if dry'ish, pockets will stop growing, not so bad, as we expect, and allow for them, recently its been really bad, far worse than 1976, the stream, drains, and springs, died out in august then, they have never fully recovered to normal, since 2018 drought, some springs/drains, haven't run for 3 yrs, and never seen the stream, continuously so little flow, or dry. We use brassica's, as a break crop for reseeds, and as our 'feed insurance policy', we were a good 5/6 weeks later, starting on them this year, to normal, just hadn't grown. I do accept your point, of dry and windy, perhaps less than ideal, but the dry and sheltered, wasn't much different !
 

Derrick Hughes

Member
Location
Ceredigion
is that a 1p coin ?
why don't we just grow 1 variety of grass ? Many other countries do, for my suspicious mind, do they put lots of varieties in, hoping 1 comes right ? I think growing grass, will become more technical, as time go's on, not sure why, though, i think it should get easier, after all, it grows like a weed here ! Perhaps, the newer varieties, need much more, precision, to produce the results on a field scale, to match the precise trial plots, being told germination rate, in a lab, are not replicated in field, unless perfect conditions, i was certainly shocked, to be told germination, of the newer varieties, if not ideal, could drop to 50%.
Different varieties compliment one another- for instance late Perennials give you a lot of density in the bottom but are quite late - by including them in mix of earlier varieties the sward is not so open.
Selling by the Kg don't really work for us as most mixes are custom mixes to suit the specific farm after we have spoken to the farmer
The company has never been so busy - 7 mixers going flat and another two planned-
I think you will see a lot more use of these latest Tetraploid Perennials - better animal performance and they withstand drought better
Base is certainly one of the leaders being very tolerant of drought conditions
And you can't really overseed without using Tetraploids-
 
Last edited:

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
is that because new leys, are just not lasting, in adverse conditions, or are farmers, just looking to increase production ? There must be a reason, or perhaps your leys are great ! We decided, not to try your base PRG, this year, for 2 reasons, 1st, nobody recommended it, which, for us, wouldn't matter a jot, but 2nd, we are 'trying' a lot of different 'things', with grass, and if you try to many things, at once, you aren't really going to know, what, we hope, makes the bell ring ! But, it will be tried, as will other 'things'.
 

Derrick Hughes

Member
Location
Ceredigion
is that because new leys, are just not lasting, in adverse conditions, or are farmers, just looking to increase production ? There must be a reason, or perhaps your leys are great ! We decided, not to try your base PRG, this year, for 2 reasons, 1st, nobody recommended it, which, for us, wouldn't matter a jot, but 2nd, we are 'trying' a lot of different 'things', with grass, and if you try to many things, at once, you aren't really going to know, what, we hope, makes the bell ring ! But, it will be tried, as will other 'things'.
I could have given you some recommendations , . But a hell of a lot as gone out in the Cool Graze Mix as farmers are looking to get more from grass , Overseeding is massive around here as well , if its is a success then that will be a massive help, we trying seed treatment on a block as soon as its cut to see if it helps to get the seed away quicker , all interesting stuff .
 

Sid

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
South Molton
Going over this again, for the uninitiated.

Selling in price per kilo is totally unnecessary, I was never interested in doling out cheap grass seed and neither should a farmer be buying it.

Grass may be sold in a 20 or 25kg pack if the customer requires it. Drilling men quite like it if they are going to shove in a straight like tetraflorum after maize and have 200 acres to do, for example although you can get it put in big bags if you prefer for that kind of job. An acre per pack keeps it simple for contractors who may be having to drill multiple farms.

For every mix I ever did the amount of kilos per pack varied according to the varieties going in it and the requirements of the customer. A lot of seed retailers cannot do this because they do not mix the stuff themselves, they are merely reselling a pack made by someone else with their margin on top. Similar to the maize job.

Is 6kg, 12kg or 13kg per acre not enough? No idea, tell me what is in it. Yes, you can have an 18kg/acre pack with red clover and the like in it if you really want but obviously the pack price will seem expensive. I've sold many leys that would seem expensive on a per acre basis, but customers never complained because they received exactly what they wanted. If you want dirt cheap you were speaking to the wrong bloke.

Grass seed is a far more technical area than many farmers realise. A moron can sell you something off a list of ready made mixtures, and if you are only interested in that then you might as well buy from whoever is willing to cut their arm off the most. It's not the sort of business I wanted to chase because a big seed warehouse has no sales people, no office team and virtually no associated cost to cover so can sell the stuff for whatever they can. That's chasing each other down the drain and as my clients would readily testify if someone offered them a completely daft deal I would often tell them to take it.

I do not know why a farm in Somerset is having persistent failures or problems with their grass. As a starting point, you need to soil test and a spade will soon tell you if the ground is tight or not. As I have repeatedly said many times in the past, a lot of the big modern tetraploids will not take punishment whatsoever, if you cut low repeatedly and damage the meristematic tissue or exhaust the root mass, they will die. Even diploids can't take it forever. The trend toward later and later grazing and even more poaching means you are robbing the plant and if you make bare dirt your weed grasses will be the first to move back in. Much depends on the management of a ley way after the stuff has emerged and seen itself through the winter. If you want chicory and plaintain in it then best start with land that is clean to begin with. I know what farmers in this region are like, 'nah won't bother putting ally on the wheat this year' and then wonder why the ley after it is diggered in perennial carp within 18 months. I have already offered to walk fields if people want, I am heading in that direction regularly now anyway. Just put a red outline on a bing map and send it to me. I will soon see what is going on if I walk a field over the space of several months. I often walked customers fields during silaging time to see what was afoot and because it is handy to see a field with basically no foliage in it.



It can get significantly hotter in other countries (although most grass seed is grown in climates far different to our own), which changes the disease profile. I've nothing against 'foreign' varieties (used a fair few NZ varieties in the past) but you need a company that has done the trials themselves to know how it behaves and what it can and cannot do. You can probably source some very cheap grass seed from breeders abroad but it will be a complete unknown for the end user because no one will know anything about it. Disease risks could be considerable. It's growing habit could also mean it is a complete pain in the chuff.

Do you not up the seed rate for more challenging conditions?

I know I spread sometime double in areas that are heavier or have not grown so well previously?

Easier to do when not in a "bag and acre" thought process
 

Sid

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
South Molton
I could have given you some recommendations , . But a hell of a lot as gone out in the Cool Graze Mix as farmers are looking to get more from grass , Overseeding is massive around here as well , if its is a success then that will be a massive help, we trying seed treatment on a block as soon as its cut to see if it helps to get the seed away quicker , all interesting stuff .
Theses treatments seem to be the fashion atm.

Seed treatment?
It it oil from a Serpentes.
 

Derrick Hughes

Member
Location
Ceredigion
Do you not up the seed rate for more challenging conditions?

I know I spread sometime double in areas that are heavier or have not grown so well previously?

Easier to do when not in a "bag and acre" thought process
I'm going to up the seed rate for Autumn Direct drilling into burnt off pasture -but its a lot to do with grass type as has been already said - I am doing half the field with the treatment so will let you know if I see any difference
 

Derrick Hughes

Member
Location
Ceredigion
@Derrick Hughes
Any thoughts apart from not enough red?
Oliver Seeds - they do some good mixes
Lot of interest in Plantain- Tonic being the top variety
Lot more use of Tetraploids for grazing now. not as dense but being more open the clover does better. The newer ones are later heading more persistent and good drought tolerance. Bang some red in as well and don't graze it as hard
 

Sid

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
South Molton
Not enough red used there Sid. 😉
Bang some red in as well and don't graze it as hard
Easy to say, graze red.
If I bought from either of you and put the red into grazing, would you come and help drench any bloated ones?

I like an easy life, 20 years of being reliant on clovers. I will keep the red for cutting thanks.

Other input taken on board
 

Derrick Hughes

Member
Location
Ceredigion
Easy to say, graze red.
If I bought from either of you and put the red into grazing, would you come and help drench any bloated ones?

I like an easy life, 20 years of being reliant on clovers. I will keep the red for cutting thanks.

Other input taken on board
Organic Drought Resistant Grass Seed Mix (Acre Pack)
3.00 kg ORG HUSAR AMBA Cocksfoot
2.00 kg Base Tetraploid
3.20 kg MINTO Meadow Fescue
1.30 kg ORG RAGNER Timothy

0.40 kg ALICE White Clover
0.40 kg MERWI White Clover
0.25 kg JURA White Clover
0.30 kg CHOICE Chicory
0.25 kg Burnet
0.05 kg Yarrow
0.10 kg Sheep's Parsley
0.25 kg TONIC Plantain
12.50 kg per acre
 

Sid

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
South Molton
Organic Drought Resistant Grass Seed Mix (Acre Pack)
3.00 kg ORG HUSAR AMBA Cocksfoot
2.00 kg Base Tetraploid
3.20 kg MINTO Meadow Fescue
1.30 kg ORG RAGNER Timothy

0.40 kg ALICE White Clover
0.40 kg MERWI White Clover
0.25 kg JURA White Clover
0.30 kg CHOICE Chicory
0.25 kg Burnet
0.05 kg Yarrow
0.10 kg Sheep's Parsley
0.25 kg TONIC Plantain
12.50 kg per acre

That's NOT an allowed organic mix for this year.
% inclusion organic is too low
 

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