autumn re-seeding

[Derrick Hughes]

I'm not sure what you arguing exactly. Yes, it will green over with weed grasses and other weeds- there is an established weed seed bank in the uppermost layers of the soil as I have said previously. Burning it again 6 weeks later won't do much in this regard as they do not all emerge in one go unfortunately. This is the problem with methods that do not invert the soil to bring up dirt which has a lower weed seed burden, within a short space of time the weed grasses are able to proliferate and dominate the new ley. It can be worse if there is significant couch rhizomes or other species are present.

Controlling chickweed in a new ley is childsplay and does not cost a lot of money at all, could be the cheapest grassland spraying people will ever do actually.

What I am saying is weed grasses are the same if you plough or direct drill - you seemed to be making a point that they are worse with direct drilling, unless I miss understood - they are in fact a lot worse if you plough as you have disturbed all the soil .
I could show you pictures of fields today that were ploughed and cultivated 2 months ago and look like they have been reseeded,but no seed as gone on

 

[betweenthelines]

Farmers (and ex consultants) again demonstrating their addiction to the chemicals. No wonder the "green" lobby continues to grow.

Whichever way you chose to establish a new ley, it should outgrow the broadleaf weed burden.

In fact, proper management of an established sward -perhaps with a bit of fresh seed scratched in-and you may not have to reseed anyway.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Farmers (and ex consultants) again demonstrating their addiction to the chemicals. No wonder the "green" lobby continues to grow.

Whichever way you chose to establish a new ley, it should outgrow the broadleaf weed burden.

In fact, proper management of an established sward -perhaps with a bit of fresh seed scratched in-and you may not have to reseed anyway.

6 litres of Roundup is far less damaging to the environment than ploughing im afraid -
But I agree if we can crack this overseeding its the future - for dairy farmers in particular

 

[Cows 'n grass]

What I am saying is weed grasses are the same if you plough or direct drill - you seemed to be making a point that they are worse with direct drilling, unless I miss understood - they are in fact a lot worse if you plough as you have disturbed all the soil .
I could show you pictures of fields today that were ploughed and cultivated 2 months ago and look like they have been reseeded,but no seed as gone on

It all depends how long ago it was last ploughed and whether the guy doing the ploughing is any good.

I finish grazing a field of forage rape today that was dd. It was full of annual meadow grass before the forage rape so it will be ploughed tomorrow to put the amg seeds well down. Previously experience has taught me that min tilling the new grass seeds in will just leave the new ley full of weed grasses.

Grass seeds don't remain viable for very long so they will not be ploughed back up.

 

[ollie989898]

What I am saying is weed grasses are the same if you plough or direct drill - you seemed to be making a point that they are worse with direct drilling, unless I miss understood - they are in fact a lot worse if you plough as you have disturbed all the soil .
I could show you pictures of fields today that were ploughed and cultivated 2 months ago and look like they have been reseeded,but no seed as gone on

They are certainly not the same if you plough vs no-till, I can assure you.

 

[ollie989898]

It all depends how long ago it was last ploughed and whether the guy doing the ploughing is any good.

I finish grazing a field of forage rape today that was dd. It was full of annual meadow grass before the forage rape so it will be ploughed tomorrow to put the amg seeds well down. Previously experience has taught me that min tilling the new grass seeds in will just leave the new ley full of weed grasses.

Grass seeds don't remain viable for very long so they will not be ploughed back up.

In that situation, the previous crop could have possibly been managed better and left you with a clean field of stubble that may have been better for min-till. Of course, the perennial problem with forage crops is that the seed is so cheap a lot of farmers won't spend any other money on them.

 

[ollie989898]

Farmers (and ex consultants) again demonstrating their addiction to the chemicals. No wonder the "green" lobby continues to grow.

Whichever way you chose to establish a new ley, it should outgrow the broadleaf weed burden.

In fact, proper management of an established sward -perhaps with a bit of fresh seed scratched in-and you may not have to reseed anyway.

The fact you are reseeding with a virtual monoculture and probably throwing nitrogen and slurry about makes the use of chemicals a moot point. The house is already burning, what difference does a few litres of hydrocarbon based materials being thrown on make? Don't try to convince yourself that farming without chemicals, fertilisers, lime or seed is any better or worse environmentally.

 

[Cows 'n grass]

In that situation, the previous crop could have possibly been managed better and left you with a clean field of stubble that may have been better for min-till. Of course, the perennial problem with forage crops is that the seed is so cheap a lot of farmers won't spend any other money on them.

The previous crop was a long term ley that had been poached quite badly in the past. A good crop of rape is up and away so fast that you wouldn't really have time to spray out grass weeds before they're under the canopy.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

They are certainly not the same if you plough vs no-till, I can assure you.

With due respect you don't farm my land -i use a lot of methods on my land and I can know on my land they are the same- if i burn of twice on min till it reduces the weed burden drastically over ploughing
In the past this land was all arable green crop grass rotations all ploughed - hardly any sprays- where do you think the weed seed went when the ploughed - it did not magically disappear- its waiting underground to come back up

 

[betweenthelines]

The fact you are reseeding with a virtual monoculture and probably throwing nitrogen and slurry about makes the use of chemicals a moot point. The house is already burning, what difference does a few litres of hydrocarbon based materials being thrown on make? Don't try to convince yourself that farming without chemicals, fertilisers, lime or seed is any better or worse environmentally.

I haven't got a problem with the use of chemicals in the right circumstances, but it would be naive to say that farmers etc. don't over use them-spraying Roundup to "ripen" cereals being a prime example.

As for reseeding, the standard advice is Roundup, Lime, fert, then either; a) plough (or disc) cultivate drill post emerge spray. b) DD post emerge spray.

My view would be a) if the ploughing is done correctly, there's no need to use Roundup-fields were reseeded perfectly well before Roundup. b) new seeds sown into a properly cultivated seedbed (where weed seeds have chitted and been eliminated by cultivation,) will outgrow and smother any remaining weeds. c) Proper management including the use of fertilisers and lime, will improve most grassland anyway so reducing the need for reseeding.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

If I had ploughed this, then this mass of weeds would be put in the seed bank for future growth.
With my method it has germinated and been killed

 

[Derrick Hughes]

I haven't got a problem with the use of chemicals in the right circumstances, but it would be naive to say that farmers etc. don't over use them-spraying Roundup to "ripen" cereals being a prime example.

As for reseeding, the standard advice is Roundup, Lime, fert, then either; a) plough (or disc) cultivate drill post emerge spray. b) DD post emerge spray.

My view would be a) if the ploughing is done correctly, there's no need to use Roundup-fields were reseeded perfectly well before Roundup. b) new seeds sown into a properly cultivated seedbed (where weed seeds have chitted and been eliminated by cultivation,) will outgrow and smother any remaining weeds. c) Proper management including the use of fertilisers and lime, will improve most grassland anyway so reducing the need for reseeding.

Biggest problem around here is Docks . That field I have burn was smothered in them - ok I have not done much to reduced the seed bank , dock seeds can live in the soil for decades , but what I have done is killed all the growing plants, if I would have ploughed I would have cut the roots to make more plants and bought more seed to the surface
As for reseeeding - if you have no productive grasses you have no productive grasses - no amount of lime will bring them back

 

[Kevtherev]

Chickweed is easy to graze out with those white fluffy things

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Chickweed is easy to graze out with those white fluffy things [emoji207]

I hope so -they are on it now

 

[som farmer]

one thing i have learned, and surprised me, was the effect of ploughing, on the landscape, we all know ploughing moves soil, but, having archeologists here, showing me the difference between mainly arable, v mainly grass, over the centuries, with mainly grass, soil movement, is only 4/5 feet, in down ward movement, arable can be 12/15, or more feet, and they could show you various plough pans through the years !
Just shows what ploughing, can alter, but ploughing is a tool, in the art of farming, it is also very destructive, to soil structure, which, is becoming more and more important, since the massive ploughing expansion, of the 1940's, is degrading structure, now, more noticeable in the thinner soils. Good soil structure, has 1 good point, it increases profit, and reduces costs, we can then add carbon, water retention etc, And, in fairness, improving structure, is cheap, and easy, and can produce good results, in just a few years. Continual ploughing, is bad, lack of rotation, ie continual arable, is not good either. It, will increase, in importance, in the near future, so it is something, we all will have to use, so, start , it will increase yields. Min-til, D/D, rotation, all have their place, as does ploughing, justs needs a slightly different mind set.

 

[ollie989898]

With due respect you don't farm my land -i use a lot of methods on my land and I can know on my land they are the same- if i burn of twice on min till it reduces the weed burden drastically over ploughing
In the past this land was all arable green crop grass rotations all ploughed - hardly any sprays- where do you think the weed seed went when the ploughed - it did not magically disappear- its waiting underground to come back up

I reckon I have probably overseen the establishment of about 5000 acres as a conservative estimate. I've seen grass established in a variety of soils across my area. I've seen all kinds of methods tried and tested and a myriad of different varieties.

Try double spraying all you like, the difference will not be seen in the same year of establishment, the results are usually seen in years 2 or 3.

 

[teslacoils]

Will be drilling Monday next week.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

I reckon I have probably overseen the establishment of about 5000 acres as a conservative estimate. I've seen grass established in a variety of soils across my area. I've seen all kinds of methods tried and tested and a myriad of different varieties.

Try double spraying all you like, the difference will not be seen in the same year of establishment, the results are usually seen in years 2 or 3.

I cant make no sense of what you say -but they thats what they usually say about me [emoji23]
Ploughing is dying around here -but keep on to your horses if you like[emoji23]

 

[Kevtherev]

Plough based systems will still exist.
A combination of plough and DD works well each have their place.

 

[Cows 'n grass]

We're on a fully worked seedbed here today. The plough got a headstart yesterday evening and by 5 this morning he was back and being chased by my tractor with front press and two heavy rolls in tandom.

It was nearly a seedbed following the press and rolls.

A very fast pass with the power harrow and it's near perfect.

And now dad's out chasing the PH with cambridge rolls. Unfortunately it's far to windy to consider broadcasting grass seeds. My next purchase needs to be a drill to sit on the PH. All in all, quite a productive day.