- Location
- 200 miles N,NW of New York
if it's 180 degrees out, turn the crank shaft one full turn, then the marks should line up, the firing order is 1342, injector pump turns half speed of the crank same for cam shaft,
B275 injector pump
- Thread starter averageguy54
- Start date
- Location
- North West Wales
Right, if the tractor was running before timing should be ok. Firing order is stamped on the block.
As has been asked, is there any diesel smoke or any attemot at starting? Did it bleed up ok? Have you tried a sniff of the devil fluid? Are the glowplugs working correctly? They’re a bit of a muchness to get going first time. Are you aware of the excess fuel setting on the stop lever? It pulls out to engage excess fuel.
I’ve had a bit of bother with one of my inline pump tractors and it’s been on and off three or four times now and I’ve never set the engine at one point just whip the pump off and re fit back. Engine will need to be in a certain position for you to see the three pump securing bolts through the pump gear holes anyhow. I’m 99.9% that the pump gear can’t jump on the idler when in position, timing cover is too tight of a fit.
Now, what’s the chances the pump repairers have forgotton the keyway on the drive hub or maybe fitted the camshaft wrong way around? The camshaft is tappered both ends with a keyway, the tachometer or hours display is driven off the other end. I stripped mine last month to replace the springs, I’ve actually got the doner pump in bits but not with me, I could check if both keyways would position the cam in same place or if it’s at all possible to fit wrong way around but nit before the weekend. One bearing is a roller bearing while other is a ball bearing therefore I couldn’t re fit mine wrong way. Possible though if you’re replacing the bearings.
As has been asked, is there any diesel smoke or any attemot at starting? Did it bleed up ok? Have you tried a sniff of the devil fluid? Are the glowplugs working correctly? They’re a bit of a muchness to get going first time. Are you aware of the excess fuel setting on the stop lever? It pulls out to engage excess fuel.
I’ve had a bit of bother with one of my inline pump tractors and it’s been on and off three or four times now and I’ve never set the engine at one point just whip the pump off and re fit back. Engine will need to be in a certain position for you to see the three pump securing bolts through the pump gear holes anyhow. I’m 99.9% that the pump gear can’t jump on the idler when in position, timing cover is too tight of a fit.
Now, what’s the chances the pump repairers have forgotton the keyway on the drive hub or maybe fitted the camshaft wrong way around? The camshaft is tappered both ends with a keyway, the tachometer or hours display is driven off the other end. I stripped mine last month to replace the springs, I’ve actually got the doner pump in bits but not with me, I could check if both keyways would position the cam in same place or if it’s at all possible to fit wrong way around but nit before the weekend. One bearing is a roller bearing while other is a ball bearing therefore I couldn’t re fit mine wrong way. Possible though if you’re replacing the bearings.
averageguy54
Member
- Location
- New Brunswick, Canada
Time off for lunch. I haven't bolted the pump to the engine yet because the timing is so far off I don't see the point. Once I did get the marks lined up, I would have to unbolt it and refasten it again in the right position.
I've been able to get the engine at TDC #1 several times in the right sequence so that the next piston to open is #3 as per the firing order. However, at that time the timing gear is out of kilter with the injector pump drive. The timing pointer will only bolt to the injector pump in one position and that has so far not been where the timing marks are on the timing gear, not even close. somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2 a turn away. As far as I can see, I need the pointer for the friction fit it will provide when bolted down to keep the engine in time, because the bolt holes are actually slots to allow adjustment.
I probably won't get at it until Friday, tomorrow is going to be "Grampy day" I've been informed. Maybe another day to kind of mull it over will do me some good.
Mursal's explanation was helpful in understanding why they wrote the manual up that way, maybe I've been overthinking this, Paying more attention to the fact that #2 seems to always be in the way instead of what is happening before and after.
If you get the chance Mur Huwcun, I'd be curious to know. Re-opening the pump is really the last thing on my list of things that could be wrong, but I don't discount it either.
I've been able to get the engine at TDC #1 several times in the right sequence so that the next piston to open is #3 as per the firing order. However, at that time the timing gear is out of kilter with the injector pump drive. The timing pointer will only bolt to the injector pump in one position and that has so far not been where the timing marks are on the timing gear, not even close. somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2 a turn away. As far as I can see, I need the pointer for the friction fit it will provide when bolted down to keep the engine in time, because the bolt holes are actually slots to allow adjustment.
I probably won't get at it until Friday, tomorrow is going to be "Grampy day" I've been informed. Maybe another day to kind of mull it over will do me some good.
Mursal's explanation was helpful in understanding why they wrote the manual up that way, maybe I've been overthinking this, Paying more attention to the fact that #2 seems to always be in the way instead of what is happening before and after.
If you get the chance Mur Huwcun, I'd be curious to know. Re-opening the pump is really the last thing on my list of things that could be wrong, but I don't discount it either.
- Location
- North West Wales
Personally I would bolt it up to try, nothing to loose but half an hour of your time.
Mursal
Member
Keep it simple .............
Firing order = 1342 ?
So if you have number 1 at TDC looking for diesel with both valves closed number 3 has nothing to do with the timing.
As long as you turn the engine in the same direction as the starter, clockwise looking into the front of the engine, otherwise you will only get confused.
If you find TDC on number 1 with both valves closed, you have just passed the point of injection, so should aid finding the marks? Then cut the diesel off coming out number one pipe on the pump by moving the element upwards and fit the injector pump. It should start ..................
Hope this helps ..........
startinghandle
Member
have you changed filter?
averageguy54
Member
- Location
- New Brunswick, Canada
It's raining and snowing here today so working on the tractor is out of the question. Yea, Not a wimp, just getting a little smarter in my old age. Anyway, reading over things today, while cooking lunch I do believe I have found my breakthrough.
Mursal wrote, "If you find TDC on number 1 with both valves close, you have just PASSED the point of injection." I've been trying to time to just BEFORE. My mistake,spent years working on gas engines not diesels. When my son and I had it lined up a couple days ago, if I'd have turned the pump over to just passed injection I would have been able to time it from there, even though the pointer didn't line up with the timing marks.
Tomorrow I should be able to get this sorted out and let you know.
Mursal wrote, "If you find TDC on number 1 with both valves close, you have just PASSED the point of injection." I've been trying to time to just BEFORE. My mistake,spent years working on gas engines not diesels. When my son and I had it lined up a couple days ago, if I'd have turned the pump over to just passed injection I would have been able to time it from there, even though the pointer didn't line up with the timing marks.
Tomorrow I should be able to get this sorted out and let you know.
averageguy54
Member
- Location
- New Brunswick, Canada
Back at it! Two days of babysitting grandchildren and three days of rain, showers, drizzle interspaced with a few hours of no precipitation, I managed to get the rest of the woodpile under cover and with more rain in the forecast for all this week, I also managed to get a shelter erected over the tractor so I can work out of the wet.
Sol. I have the engine lined up on TDC#1 and the pump has just closed on #1. I am now able to see bolt holes so that I can fasten the pump to the engine. Now my book says that it should be timed at 20*BTDC. would I back the engine up the proper amount and then fasten it all down to at least get close?
Sol. I have the engine lined up on TDC#1 and the pump has just closed on #1. I am now able to see bolt holes so that I can fasten the pump to the engine. Now my book says that it should be timed at 20*BTDC. would I back the engine up the proper amount and then fasten it all down to at least get close?
averageguy54
Member
- Location
- New Brunswick, Canada
Okay, thanks. Hopefully Will get it to fire tomorrow. Starting to get a little too dark out for much more work on it tonight.
averageguy54
Member
- Location
- New Brunswick, Canada
Pitch black outside now, but a couple questions to double check on things. While bolting the pump down I managed to find my old marks, I'm assuming I should ignore them as they don't quite line up and I have to advance beyond TDC to get them to.
Second, I am unable to back far enough up to get 20* without backing up the pump as well. Does that make sense? I'm guessing that I after I get it running the spill time will take care of that or should I back the pump up that bit first?
Second, I am unable to back far enough up to get 20* without backing up the pump as well. Does that make sense? I'm guessing that I after I get it running the spill time will take care of that or should I back the pump up that bit first?
Mursal
Member
Sorry I missed your post earlier today ............
When you say the old marks?
Marks from pump gear to casing or pump gear to drive gear?
I'm not sure what you should do to be honest?
To set the injector timing up at 20*
You will have to disconnect the pump to back the engine up.
When back to far move forward to line the marks up.
Then reconnect the pump, keeping it just at the point of fuel cut off (no fuel coming out number one outlet).
When you find this point, just scribe the gear to the pump casing, so you can line it up without doing the fuel spill.
So when you have everything reconnected, you will have fuel cut off just at 20* .
You can check this and double check this by cranking over with a screwdriver 2 full engine revolutions, the marks should line up again. If not try again ........
When you say the old marks?
Marks from pump gear to casing or pump gear to drive gear?
I'm not sure what you should do to be honest?
To set the injector timing up at 20*
You will have to disconnect the pump to back the engine up.
When back to far move forward to line the marks up.
Then reconnect the pump, keeping it just at the point of fuel cut off (no fuel coming out number one outlet).
When you find this point, just scribe the gear to the pump casing, so you can line it up without doing the fuel spill.
So when you have everything reconnected, you will have fuel cut off just at 20* .
You can check this and double check this by cranking over with a screwdriver 2 full engine revolutions, the marks should line up again. If not try again ........
averageguy54
Member
- Location
- New Brunswick, Canada
Just got back in, trying to get everything hooked up to try. But I now discover that the battery needs replacing, not even a click with the charger hooked up. Frustrating so I decided to see if I could get the belts off, they desperately need replacing. More frustration there. I can see that the previous owner had trouble with it because it has bronzing on the pulley where the set screws go.
The marks I was referring to, were marks I had put on there to match the pump with the gear when I took the pump off but I didn't use them because the engine isn't anywhere near that position.
With the engine at TDC on the timing marks, I rotated the pump to just past opening on #1 so it is closed.and bolted it down there.I think that is the position you are describing. I've got the lines hooked up and everything is bled with the hand pump as far as the injector lines. I can hear it dumping fuel back in the tank
Got any hints on getting that fan pulley to turn. I've been soaking it with a good penetrating fluid for 3-4 weeks already and it doesn't move. I tried a little heat with a propane torch but I was worried I might mess something up in the water pump if I got it too hot.
The marks I was referring to, were marks I had put on there to match the pump with the gear when I took the pump off but I didn't use them because the engine isn't anywhere near that position.
With the engine at TDC on the timing marks, I rotated the pump to just past opening on #1 so it is closed.and bolted it down there.I think that is the position you are describing. I've got the lines hooked up and everything is bled with the hand pump as far as the injector lines. I can hear it dumping fuel back in the tank
Got any hints on getting that fan pulley to turn. I've been soaking it with a good penetrating fluid for 3-4 weeks already and it doesn't move. I tried a little heat with a propane torch but I was worried I might mess something up in the water pump if I got it too hot.
startinghandle
Member
40 years ago when I worked at main IH dealer here in UK , the best way to undo pulley was to give sharp blow with hammer and punch and never broke pulley if I remember correctly there is a small lump to hit but I am not suggesting you to do same just in case the pulley breaks and you could be struggling to find replacement..... I assume you have slackened locknut and allen screw
Mursal
Member
I wouldn't stress about the water pump pulley or belts until you get the timing locked down, back up and running again.
Just charge the battery and investigate why it wont crank the engine / cross it at the starter to test.
But that's just my way of working through things, I hate to have 5 jobs half finished on the same engine.
Just charge the battery and investigate why it wont crank the engine / cross it at the starter to test.
But that's just my way of working through things, I hate to have 5 jobs half finished on the same engine.
averageguy54
Member
- Location
- New Brunswick, Canada
The battery is beyond charging, it will hopefully get replaced today. I'm trying to keep jobs to a minimum as best I can.
The water pump belt needs doing for sure before the tractor goes back in service, as well as the alternator belt, but that was just an exercise to hopefully get something done while I still had daylight.
i suspected that, startinghandle, and I didn't really get at it that hard because it has obviously been damaged previously. As near as I can tell there are no set screws or lock nuts even holding it in place, so I think before I get into it much more I will turn it over and see if I can figure out how they kept it fastened on. I will also check with a local scrapper/restorer to see if he knows of another available one. Just an afterthought, is there any chance this is left hand thread instead of right hand thread?
The water pump belt needs doing for sure before the tractor goes back in service, as well as the alternator belt, but that was just an exercise to hopefully get something done while I still had daylight.
i suspected that, startinghandle, and I didn't really get at it that hard because it has obviously been damaged previously. As near as I can tell there are no set screws or lock nuts even holding it in place, so I think before I get into it much more I will turn it over and see if I can figure out how they kept it fastened on. I will also check with a local scrapper/restorer to see if he knows of another available one. Just an afterthought, is there any chance this is left hand thread instead of right hand thread?
startinghandle
Member
it is possible the pulley has left hand thread but I cant remember after 40 years, you say there is no locknut or allen screw locking the pulley are you sure ??
startinghandle
Member
are we talking on the same wavelength ?? I am referring to the lock nut and screw on the fan pulley which you unscrew so that the out side half of the pulley will undo so that new belt can be fitted...
averageguy54
Member
- Location
- New Brunswick, Canada
Grandkids are gone home to bed, too dark to work. New battery is on the charger getting topped up for the morning. I did manage to take a close look at that pulley, and there are no set screws that I can see. Now the one obvious set screw hole has been bronzed around but is open and clearly is empty. Directly across form that hole is another bronzed area with a lump of metal in the middle of it. There is no obvious threaded or unthreaded hole in it so I don't know for sure about it. Neither of these spots line up with the grooves in the fan hub, which I assume were put there for the set screw tom seat.
I checked with my local scrapper/restorer and he tells me he has 2 in stock. One is new for 16 pounds ( haven't figured out how to get the green keys to work to use the pound sign) and the other is used for 6 pounds. When I have a chance to pick one of them up to make sure it is what I need, I think the old one will come off in an expeditious manner although without damaging the hub.
I checked with my local scrapper/restorer and he tells me he has 2 in stock. One is new for 16 pounds ( haven't figured out how to get the green keys to work to use the pound sign) and the other is used for 6 pounds. When I have a chance to pick one of them up to make sure it is what I need, I think the old one will come off in an expeditious manner although without damaging the hub.