Back to minimum tillage ?

[ajd132]

Well if you’ve any amount of blackgrass and you autumn drill without inversion then you are heading for trouble in my view. There just isn’t enough time for a chit. Shed seed comes up in the next crop. I’m fairly sure about that.

Just plough old seeds out.

 

[farmerfred86]

Apart from spring barley, which is proving hit and miss sometimes and needs a re think rather than pure no till, our crops look no different to heavily cultivated nearby farms.
in fact i have 45 ha that was ploughed after some poor beans (should never have been planted as over done on that farm but the land owner insisted he didn’t want any other break crops), in really good condiction, then pressed and levelled twice with a cultipress. The ploughed crops look more stressed and have been far more conductive to yellow rust. This has been seen in trials this year too interestingly. The other 30ha of wheat on that farm is after spring barley, it was zero tilled and looks a better crop. Will be interesting to see if there’s any difference in yield.
The ploughed stuff actually has more Blackgrass in it, and it was ploughed pretty well (for this soil!)
Quite pleased we did it really as its a re-assurance that we Are doing the right thing with the direct drilling.

My neighbour has been complaining about yellow rust in skyscraper this spring and Ive seen none at all. I just think its interesting....

 

[DrWazzock]

Just plough old seeds out.

Maybe better bring up a few seed that have suffered a 70% attrition due to deep burial than leave 100% viable seed on top. Leave it down two years then plough rotationally. Need to do the maths depending on history etc. Not just BG either. Brome began to take off without ploughing here. It’s still worst where the ploughing headland joins. Tells me something.

 

[ajd132]

My neighbour has been complaining about yellow rust in skyscraper this spring and Ive seen none at all. I just think its interesting....

Went for a beer with Sam and Ben S yesterday. They got one field they ploughed for brome and saw the same, way more YR in ploughed land, also on another farm he contract sprays the same, infact that field is where I first saw rust coming up this spring just driving past.
there is definitely a big connection between prevelance of YR and ploughing.

 

[ajd132]

Maybe better bring up a few seed that have suffered a 70% attrition due to deep burial than leave 100% viable seed on top. Leave it down two years then plough rotationally. Need to do the maths depending on history etc. Not just BG either. Brome began to take off without ploughing here. It’s still worst where the ploughing headland joins. Tells me something.

Good attrition rates from just leaving it on the surface. It if it works for you then fair enough.

 

[DrWazzock]

The other thing is there are different types of min till. Pulling 7 legs 14” deep isn’t my idea of min till. Might as well plough it if you are going that deep. My idea of min till is discs and a scuffle with the PH. That way you don’t mix seed deep. I don’t think you can avoid some subsoiling here though from time to time in slumped pondy clay holes as required when it’s dry. I would never subsoil a whole field though as routine.

 

[warksfarmer]

The other thing is there are different types of min till. Pulling 7 legs 14” deep isn’t my idea of min till. Might as well plough it if you are going that deep. My idea of min till is discs and a scuffle with the PH. That way you don’t mix seed deep. I don’t think you can avoid some subsoiling here though from time to time in slumped pondy clay holes as required when it’s dry. I would never subsoil a whole field though as routine.

That’s certainly what I’m referring to ……. Scratching the surface to create tilth whilst chitting grass seeds. 2 inches max.

Going to do a bit of trial here and plough a bad ryegrass field that’ll go into winter wheat then also shallow till another bad ryegrass field. Both will then be drilled November with the Triton.

Slightly concerned about saying this due to the inevitable backlash but we have a lot less ryegrass where we used the Triton direct. I’ve no idea why though.

 

[ajd132]

That’s certainly what I’m referring to ……. Scratching the surface to create tilth whilst chitting grass seeds. 2 inches max.

Going to do a bit of trial here and plough a bad ryegrass field that’ll go into winter wheat then also shallow till another bad ryegrass field. Both will then be drilled November with the Triton.

Slightly concerned about saying this due to the inevitable backlash but we have a lot less ryegrass where we used the Triton direct. I’ve no idea why though.

I actually found the scratching made it worse unless you have a kind autumn and can drill late. Did work quite well a couple of years but other years just wet slop you can’t even go on.

 

[DrWazzock]

That’s certainly what I’m referring to ……. Scratching the surface to create tilth whilst chitting grass seeds. 2 inches max.

Going to do a bit of trial here and plough a bad ryegrass field that’ll go into winter wheat then also shallow till another bad ryegrass field. Both will then be drilled November with the Triton.

Slightly concerned about saying this due to the inevitable backlash but we have a lot less ryegrass where we used the Triton direct. I’ve no idea why though.

Will be interesting to see the results.
Agree about the necessity to do something for tilth on heavy land. We have found straight zero till just won't work or involves just too small a drilling window on the real heavy stuff. We find one pass with heavy discs in the autumn sets it up really nicely for a scuffle with PH and roller then unidrill in spring. The heavy land just needs that bit of help with tilth creation in my view otherwise we create slots we can't close or it just won't dry, sitting undisturbed under a mat of chopped straw. We don't bale anything off though so have lots of residue to deal with.
I haven't seen shallow cultivation creating "slop on top" unless there is serious compaction underneath. Slugs don't like a bit of knocking around either.
I like heavy discs used sensibly. Not so keen on leg and disc combinations.

 

[ajd132]

Will be interesting to see the results.
Agree about the necessity to do something for tilth on heavy land. We have found straight zero till just won't work or involves just too small a drilling window on the real heavy stuff. We find one pass with heavy discs in the autumn sets it up really nicely for a scuffle with PH and roller then unidrill in spring. The heavy land just needs that bit of help with tilth creation in my view otherwise we create slots we can't close or it just won't dry, sitting undisturbed under a mat of chopped straw. We don't bale anything off though so have lots of residue to deal with.
I haven't seen shallow cultivation creating "slop on top" unless there is serious compaction underneath. Slugs don't like a bit of knocking around either.
I like heavy discs used sensibly. Not so keen on leg and disc combinations.

If you move the top two inches, it rains loads in September and October, it is horrendous.
Agree re spring drilling, oats seem okay no till but spring barley is abit hit and miss. Our plan is to essentially use a Claydon as a cultivator whilst sowing a cover crop in the summer ready for spring drilling. Just make abit of tilth.

drilling in the autumn into big summer cover crops can work really well we found out. Autumn 20, when no one could drill around this way, especially those who had moved the top inch we drilled an extra 250ish hectares of wheat. . It was quite amazing. Went on to yield nearly 10t/ha. The green kept the drill clean and running. It could have gone terribly wrong and all been eaten by slugs, and I didn’t sleep much for 3 weeks but it ended up being quite an amazing discovery for us, and very profitable. We also didn’t cause loss of soil damage like many did around here in those wet autumns trying to maul stuff in.

 

[DrWazzock]

Not saying it can’t work. We just work with what we have in front of us at the time.

 

[DrWazzock]

I remember my neighbour drilled a cover crop after OSR last year, sprayed it off then drilled WW. It looks good but it was noticeable that the cover crop didn’t establish on the heavy clay areas where it was needed most due to lack of rain. The wheat also seemed a bit thin on these areas and seemed to need a lot of slug pellets.

 

[ajd132]

I remember my neighbour drilled a cover crop after OSR last year, sprayed it off then drilled WW. It looks good but it was noticeable that the cover crop didn’t establish on the heavy clay areas where it was needed most due to lack of rain. The wheat also seemed a bit thin on these areas and seemed to need a lot of slug pellets.

Yeh the covers weren’t very good last year.

 

[Badshot]

Pretty much my whole approach.

Went from plough to mintill, that's where it really went wrong.
Mixing it through the profile is the worst thing to do.
Then to tine DD, was treading water with a few major hiccups in some fields, this was where I started heading down the point of no return with it, it either went well, or was a disaster.
Cropping changed also from wheat, wheat, rape.
To wheat rape wheat spring beans, this helped to a degree, until all chemistry in the beans was useless against BG.
Then added in a few spring wheats, this is where it went horrifically wrong in a couple of fields.
Untouched chopped straw overwintered, tine drilled spring wheat in, the BG came up faster than the wheat, badly.
Should have written it off but didn't.
It's taken me about 6 years to sort that cock up out.
Then gd drill purchased, further cropping changes.
I'll stick with the real nasty bits here.
Went winter beans, followed by linseed, followed by wosr, then a cock up with Jan drilled ww, then linseed again, back to wheat fir this year, almost clear.

I spot spray anything I see when travelling through.
Used avadex on the drill, followed by ffct etc.

It isn't vanity, it's pure common sense, where BG has a chance to get out of control it knocks seven bells out of the yields, chucking pots of money at it and not controlling it is madness.

It's better, and more sustainable, and profitable to have a good crop right through the rotation than to have weedy crops that have the kitchen sink chucked at them and still underperform.

I am seeing blw control reduce massively, it is intended to reduce the spend on BG, but it's got to be fully under control first.

Horses for courses, but I'd sooner not be contaminating the ground for the future.

I should say, I'm seeing the cost of blw control reduce massively, not the actual control of blw.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

Got a field that was terrible BG so it went into grass for silage for 5 seasons. Put it back into winter wheat with a JD 750. Prior to drilling it had 4l roundup then a full pre-em plus follow up. Today it’s got both ryegrass and BG in it. Some pockets I’m going to have to glyphosate although the sensible thing is glyphosate the lot. So don’t assume your GS4 has got rid of it.

Spoke to a chap last week who ploughed a field last year that had not been ploughed for 12 years prior. It’s now covered in BG so the so called BG professional advisors that say the seed bank reduces by a percentage every year after ploughing is rubbish.

It's not rubbish, it's just that there are so many more seeds per ha than we can comprehend.
A good bg crop can yield 800kg per ha, which is 80g per m2. Then you have the misery of consecutive BG crops adding to the seedbank, and mixing through the profile. It's so much cleverer than we are.

Got a field of wheat here which was last wheat in 2016 and spring or summer cropped since. It's sh1t, I'm amazed how much seed there must be in there. It's definitely the worst it's looked and really a job to know what to do with it.

 

[CORK]

In addition, simply putting land down to grass to overcome BG isn’t as simple as it sounds, BG can get plenty of opportunity to produce seed in a grass field, it doesn’t even have to grow that tall.
Thankfully here (in Ireland) BG is still a rarity, that said it is on certain farms and other grass weeds are also a problem.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

In addition, simply putting land down to grass to overcome BG isn’t as simple as it sounds, BG can get plenty of opportunity to produce seed in a grass field, it doesn’t even have to grow that tall.
Thankfully here (in Ireland) BG is still a rarity, that said it is on certain farms and other grass weeds are also a problem.

Actually I have form with grassing down bad BG fields. It definitely stops seed return and what viable seed is shed can't establish properly. Also the soil under grass leys becomes more fungal which the BG doesn't like, being more bacterial.

That's the good news, the problem is that so much seed survives in the soil, there aren't enough years in a farming career to wait for it all to degrade, and anyway you would still get the odd outlier giving you a cheery birthday wave as you turned 70.

 

[Cowcorn]

That’s certainly what I’m referring to ……. Scratching the surface to create tilth whilst chitting grass seeds. 2 inches max.

Going to do a bit of trial here and plough a bad ryegrass field that’ll go into winter wheat then also shallow till another bad ryegrass field. Both will then be drilled November with the Triton.

Slightly concerned about saying this due to the inevitable backlash but we have a lot less ryegrass where we used the Triton direct. I’ve no idea why though.

If youre going to plough do it right .... EG vari width closed in to narrow furrows and tight even furrows .
Thats how i plough out rye grass silage and zero grazing fields and i dont I have any ryegrass problems
Small bit of brome on the headland join in the fields that have been in cereals for a very long time .
There is a lot off difference between a Bulldozer driver and a ploughman !!!
If in doubt which camp you are in consult @Two Tone for lessons on solving your grass weed problem with the plough

 

[redsloe]

If youre going to plough do it right .... EG vari width closed in to narrow furrows and tight even furrows .
Thats how i plough out rye grass silage and zero grazing fields and i dont I have any ryegrass problems
Small bit of brome on the headland join in the fields that have been in cereals for a very long time .
There is a lot off difference between a Bulldozer driver and a ploughman !!!
If in doubt which camp you are in consult @Two Tone for lessons on solving your grass weed problem with the plough

He's singing from a different hymn sheet now.

 

[Two Tone]

He's singing from a different hymn sheet now.

Only by ploughing the farm properly, to correct the damage that Min-till had done, has it allowed me to be able to sing from that different DD hymn sheet.

If youre going to plough do it right .... EG vari width closed in to narrow furrows and tight even furrows .
Thats how i plough out rye grass silage and zero grazing fields and i dont I have any ryegrass problems
Small bit of brome on the headland join in the fields that have been in cereals for a very long time .
There is a lot off difference between a Bulldozer driver and a ploughman !!!
If in doubt which camp you are in consult @Two Tone for lessons on solving your grass weed problem with the plough

The secret is finding a sweet spot where the skimmers will throw the topsoil right in the bottom of the previous furrow.
I generally found on a KV plough, that this happens at about 16” furrow widths at about a 5mph forward speed.
Any faster or narrower sends the topsoil up the sloped side of the previous furrow, therefore not burying it all deep enough.
Also, make sure the skimmer point is set about an inch wider that the shear point. Though this can be difficult if you have a disc on the rear furrows.

You will know you got it right the following May, when the field is relatively BG free, expect where you pull the plough in and out of work at the headlands and that land get double ploughed.

As a rule of thumb:
Narrower needs slower forward speed and faster needs wider furrow widths.