BBC Radio 4 Today Programme

[Ffermer Bach]

Just listened to a section on the Today programme about the new report out and interview with Minette Batters and also Helen Browning (I think Soil Association), I thought they were ok in what they said, especially Helen saying the cost of food does not but should include the "society" costs of poor food, but far more worrying was the utter guff spouted by the rewilding lot, 1% of our food produced from the hills/uplands (sheep), so get rid of them, grouse moors produce nothing, get rid of and rewild it all. All this rewilding is very worrying as it seems to be gaining traction (along with this vegan/lab grown food malarkey).

 

[BrianV]

Just listened to a section on the Today programme about the new report out and interview with Minette Batters and also Helen Browning (I think Soil Association), I thought they were ok in what they said, especially Helen saying the cost of food does not but should include the "society" costs of poor food, but far more worrying was the utter guff spouted by the rewilding lot, 1% of our food produced from the hills/uplands (sheep), so get rid of them, grouse moors produce nothing, get rid of and rewild it all. All this rewilding is very worrying as it seems to be gaining traction (along with this vegan/lab grown food malarkey).

With long hot summers with drought conditions being forecast by the "experts" just imagine the extensive wildfires we can expect if these rewilders get their own way, so much for the wildlife, wonder whose fault will that be then?

 

[Ffermer Bach]

With long hot summers with drought conditions being forecast by the "experts" just imagine the extensive wildfires we can expect if these rewilders get their own way, so much for the wildlife, wonder whose fault will that be then?

yes, I think we need more cattle and sheep on the hills and rotational grazing, but hard to sort out on a common grazing area, but having looked at how the country can shut down (which prior to Covid was unimaginable), sorting out rotational grazing on open hills is definitely easy to sort out if there was the political will to do it.

 

[wanton dwarf]

Just listened to a section on the Today programme about the new report out and interview with Minette Batters and also Helen Browning (I think Soil Association), I thought they were ok in what they said, especially Helen saying the cost of food does not but should include the "society" costs of poor food, but far more worrying was the utter guff spouted by the rewilding lot, 1% of our food produced from the hills/uplands (sheep), so get rid of them, grouse moors produce nothing, get rid of and rewild it all. All this rewilding is very worrying as it seems to be gaining traction (along with this vegan/lab grown food malarkey).

I think it's only gaining traction from government, authorities and the NGOs groups which founded the policy in the UN as Agenda 21. Some if not all of this pressure has come from Billionaires and Corporations - who lets face it are Psychopaths, avoiding paying social taxes and then using money to manipulate populations.

Part of the strategy was to move populations from the Countryside into towns and cities - which Covid has shown is a stupid idea, as has the negative effects of Pollution in towns and cities.

It won't stop the lunatics in government from ticking the boxes in their forms.

They need to be told as often as possible they are idiots and why they are idiots.

 

[wanton dwarf]

With long hot summers with drought conditions being forecast by the "experts" just imagine the extensive wildfires we can expect if these rewilders get their own way, so much for the wildlife, wonder whose fault will that be then?

I fail to see how these "Rewilders" can even do what they say, they have no demonstrable experience.

I have never seen a successful project from the environmental loonies - Recycling has created a huge mess with plastic dumped in the ocean, failing to dredge and maintain flood defences has led to massive loss of wildlife (Somerset).

Yet despite all these criminal acts you never see a single environmentalist convicted.

Ash die back was a disease brought into the UK by a failure in environmental practices at the border .. sure there are many others.

 

[uztrac]

Gave up listening to R4 many moons ago.Its woke leftie agenda used to annoy me, stop listening to its crap and then your world will be a happier place !!!

 

[Ashtree]

Listening in to ones comforting echo chamber is the way to go….

 

[robs1]

Listening in to ones comforting echo chamber is the way to go….

Seems to work for you its true

 

[Danllan]

As I fight my way through the crowds of grouse-hungry and reliant shoppers in the supermarkets every August, I am always struck by the thought of just how important it is to keep the mass-participation sport of grouse shooting going. And the sheep up there too, after all without them them those delightful fire-risk moors might revert back to ugly, natural landscapes with awful trees popping up all over the place.

 

[Paddington]

I blame Robin Hood, the TV version which showed huge deciduous forests cut through by suspiciously level grassy rides, people actually believe this was a natural England hundreds of years ago. The rewilders want free access to see rare butterflies and hear songbirds...a small patch of pp left to rewild near us has produced nettles to six feet, dwarfed by hogweed to eight feet and bracken which could break your ankle, if you don't trip over the carpet of brambles first, you would never spot a wolf in there.

 

[Danllan]

I blame Robin Hood, the TV version which showed huge deciduous forests cut through by suspiciously level grassy rides, people actually believe this was a natural England hundreds of years ago. The rewilders want free access to see rare butterflies and hear songbirds...a small patch of pp left to rewild near us has produced nettles to six feet, dwarfed by hogweed to eight feet and bracken which could break your ankle, if you don't trip over the carpet of brambles first, you would never spot a wolf in there.

When was that patch left to itself?

 

[Paddington]

When was that patch left to itself?

Less than a year.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

I blame Robin Hood, the TV version which showed huge deciduous forests cut through by suspiciously level grassy rides, people actually believe this was a natural England hundreds of years ago. The rewilders want free access to see rare butterflies and hear songbirds...a small patch of pp left to rewild near us has produced nettles to six feet, dwarfed by hogweed to eight feet and bracken which could break your ankle, if you don't trip over the carpet of brambles first, you would never spot a wolf in there.

that sounds about right, "rewilders" idea of rewilding is actually abandonment which is really species poor, I think for rewilding we need to look at the Knebb estate, but, that is great for an example but does not produce significant amounts of produce so could not be expanded over the whole of the country. The middle way, is I think, more pockets of natural areas that are interlinked, so they do not become islands of habitat. If the government were really interested they would put wildlife bridges over motorways and major roads to interlink habitats.

 

[Danllan]

Less than a year.

...

that sounds about right, "rewilders" idea of rewilding is actually abandonment which is really species poor, I think for rewilding we need to look at the Knebb estate, but, that is great for an example but does not produce significant amounts of produce so could not be expanded over the whole of the country. The middle way, is I think, more pockets of natural areas that are interlinked, so they do not become islands of habitat. If the government were really interested they would put wildlife bridges over motorways and major roads to interlink habitats.

Yep, that's the way and it will probably happen in time. But even small 'islands' - tiny, even 1/4 acre - of wild places are valuable and they all add up. Leave them be, let nature take its course - for even more than a year! - and they'll be fine.

 

[Agrivator]

As I fight my way through the crowds of grouse-hungry and reliant shoppers in the supermarkets every August, I am always struck by the thought of just how important it is to keep the mass-participation sport of grouse shooting going. And the sheep up there too, after all without them them those delightful fire-risk moors might revert back to ugly, natural landscapes with awful trees popping up all over the place.

Grouse shooting has enormous benefits for the local community.

It employs gamekeepers.
Controls vermin and benefits ground-nesting birds.
Allows ling burning (muirburn) with benefits to grouse, sheep and other wildlife.
Maintains the local tradition of controlled burning and much reduces the risk of wildfires.
Provides seasonal employment for drivers(beaters) and loaders.
Brings money into local hotels during the shooting season, with the added benefit of seasonal employment for the local youthery.
It is one more industry which helps maintain the local infrastructure - village school, village hall, pub, shop etc.

But what do I know. I was only born and brought up on the edge of a grouse moor in the Yorkshire Dales.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

...

Yep, that's the way and it will probably happen in time. But even small 'islands' - tiny, even 1/4 acre - of wild places are valuable and they all add up. Leave them be, let nature take its course - for even more than a year! - and they'll be fine.

I think the most wildlife diverse habitats are the points of change from open grazing to woodland, the area of change, so a lot of 1/4 acre patches is far more valuable than 50 acres of woodland in one block.

 

[Danllan]

Grouse shooting has enormous benefits for the local community.

It employs gamekeepers.
Controls vermin and benefits ground-nesting birds.
Allows ling burning (muirburn) with benefits to grouse, sheep and other wildlife.
Maintains the local tradition of controlled burning and much reduces the risk of wildfires.
Provides seasonal employment for drivers(beaters) and loaders.
Brings money into local hotels during the shooting season, with the added benefit of seasonal employment for the local youthery.
It is one more industry which helps maintain the local infrastructure - village school, village hall, pub, shop etc.

But what do I know. I was only born and brought up on the edge of a grouse moor in the Yorkshire Dales.

I wasn't brought up on the edge of a moor nor was I brought up in the middle of an infantry barracks nor a Court, but I'm still able to lead a platoon attack and carry a case from start to finish, go figure...

Yes, to a lot of what you've written, but no to 'enormous', instead substitute 'some' and I'll agree. As for the remainder, a lot of it is simply saying 'It's good because it means we have to keep on doing it.' Fair enough, but I can think of many who live and / or farm in areas with grouse shooting who would be delighted to see the back of it. And none of it looks at what the alternatives would be to grouse shooting, nor the benefits concomitant with them.

I think the most wildlife diverse habitats are the points of change from open grazing to woodland, the area of change, so a lot of 1/4 acre patches is far more valuable than 50 acres of woodland in one block.

Yep, 'margins' are good, still need some big areas for other species, but if we all put, say just two 1/4 acre bits aside it would make a massive difference; equally, cooperation between neighbours, with 1/8 acre corners adjoining would be a good idea.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

when I became organic, had someone from the Welsh Office walk the farm with me, looking for habitat areas (not sure why, but he did anyway), he told me a lot of Dairy farms he could find no habitat areas at all, and I have heard Ceredigion described as a "green" desert, just grass, sheep and cattle, bit disingenuous but some truth in that statement too.

As far as grouse moors, I don't shoot, don't have a grouse moor, am happy to shoot (but often miss!), so no real opinion on grouse shooting, I am in favour of trophy hunting as I can see the economic and social benefits as well as wildlife benefits to it. I wonder if grouse moors would be more productive rotationally grazed with cattle and sheep and electronic collars, I guess water infrastructure would be a problem as well as defining who can graze what bit in a common. Top 47 acres here was open hill, I have the enclosure act here somewhere (1860's I think) where they divided the open hill to the surrounding farms, all done in copperplate, so really difficult to read, but it does show open hills can be divided. Much as I hate to say it, it could be with changes to society, the days of grouse shooting are numbered. Point of interest I was talking to the gun shop owner in Llechryd and he said there are very few youngsters shooting now, all older people.

 

[uztrac]

I have never shot grouse,it appears very very expensive from what I read in "The Field "` etc. Some of the money paid by the guns must find its way back into the local economy.Hotels,keepers,beaters etc etc