"Be British!"

Walterp

Member
Location
Pembrokeshire
Capt E J Smith's famous last words, as he encouraged the Titanic's crew to stay on board. The White Star's MD, J Bruce Ismay, remembering that he was in fact English, swiftly found a place on a lifeboat, and left the patriotic Britisher to his watery fate. (Mr Ismay received so much stick for this, afterwards, that he went to live in Scotland).

A 'British' identity is a modern invention, arising from the Act of Union 1707; it held as little attraction for the English, then, as it did for Mr Ismay in 1912. The Empire changed everything - the English, Welsh and Scots tacitly agreed to 'layer' their national identities in order to share the lustre cast by Pax Brittanica. The Irish, perhaps less so.

If the British Empire was "crucial to the idea of a British identity and to the self-image of Britishness" (David Powell, 'The Nation State') then Imperial decline rekindled nationalist memories in more assertive ways - the Irish largely went their own way, the Scots and the Welsh have devolved governments, and a 'layered' identity these days includes being European. The new WAG offices in Carmarthen proudly flies Y Ddraig Goch, the Union Jack and the Golden Stars: the Welsh flag reminds me of my nationality, the British one of our past, and the European one of our future.

The English, however, look at things rather differently - since Victorian times 'Britishness' has, for them, meant the same as 'Englishness'. The terms are still, today, used interchangeably by English people, unconsciously referencing a past far more illustrious than their present. One of my heroes is Mr Gwynfor Evans, Plaid's famous lawyer-politician who became its first MP in 1966 (for Carmarthen, where his family still live - sut mae? Dafydd) and he said it best: "Britishness is a political synonym for Englishness which extends English culture over the Scots, Welsh and the Irish".

The British identity has been eroded further by mass immigration, and by the country joining the EEC - which, of course, neatly explains precisely why the English hate both immigrants and the EU.

It has caused a sense of identity crisis - the English can hardly become devolved from themselves, can they? So, instead, they hang onto the idea of 'Be British!' even though that particular concept has, like the brave but ill-fated Capt Smith, well and truly sunk below the waves.
 
Last edited:

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
Both of my parents are from the British Isles. One is English, the other Scottish. If I'm not British then I don't know what I am, not that I waste much time worrying about it.

If you go back far enough you'll probably find its the same for most inhabitants of these islands. A mix of all sorts of different nationalities and tribes.

I might joke about being a foreigner in Lincolnshire but we are all British here and respect one another by and large even if we don't see eye to eye on everything.

The good thing about Britishness is it transcends race. The Muslims who buy our sheep are British because they inhabit the British Isles.

You are a curious fellow Mr WalterP. At one instant you portray yourself as a one nation Conservative and pro European. You would implore us to "be European", I suppose, yet you deride the concept of Britishness which has worked well for 300 years, although there have been problems of course. Nothing is ever perfect but some are better than others.

i suppose you would rather see an "independent" Wales as a region of the EU, just as the SNP would rather bow to Brussels than cooperate with Westminster. The problem is that all of that is a bit of an untried muddle. So I'll stick with being British, thank you.
 

willy

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Rutland
The union was created to to save Scotland going bankrupt, however it seems is 'nasty english' are only out for themselves, the British had a vote and voted out of a European quango which has lost its way. The Scots had a vote on independence and wanted to stay. I know you Walter p is against democracy unless it suits.. but that's the way it is.
 

Walterp

Member
Location
Pembrokeshire
Yet more racism: it's a bit sad Walt.
It's interesting when people play the Racism Card - it's almost always a defensive measure, when they feel threatened.

There is no evidence that I have ever discriminated against, or been prejudiced against, anyone. To do so would have serious professional consequences for me, so it's fairly evident that the name-calling is just that - sensitivity to the peculiar position of English nationalism.

It's legitimate for an Irishman, a Scot or a Welshman to promote nationalism (and political parties exist to do so in each country) but if an 'English National Party' was established it would be frowned upon.

As 'racists', of course.

Hence the English are, naturally enough, resentful. It's an interesting conundrum and, in fact, I sympathise with them.


[Walterp looks round, startled, and mutters "What? One has, already...?"]
 
Last edited:

nivilla1982

Member
Livestock Farmer
. Emerson Tennant, one of the MPs for Belfast in the mid-19th Century: "we wish to add to the glory of being British, the distinction of being Irish".
My view is that Britishness is a multifaceted identity, ie in my case I am Northern Irish based on place of birth and where i Live etc and British.
 

Hindsight

Member
Location
Lincolnshire


Often wondered...is this tune pro, or anti English ?

My - that is a flash back to the past. Was it 84 /85, I think. Left wing of the time. Anti Thatcher / Tories in their third government. Reference demise of traditional manufacturing jobs - motorcycles. Anti war - falklands. (read today Iraq/Afghanistan) So actually possibly as relevant and topical today as when the old lefties Strummer et al wrote it.

Thank you I am going to dig out my old Clash cassette tapes. Now to find the old Walkman.

By the way - if like the Clash have a look at The Enemy - band with similar commentary on social ills etc. Very good live though think they have folded now - must check.
 

Pond digger

Never Forgotten
Honorary Member
Location
East Yorkshire
It's interesting when people play the Racism Card - it's almost always a defensive measure, when they feel threatened.

There is no evidence that I have ever discriminated against, or been prejudiced against, anyone. To do so would have serious professional consequences for me, so it's fairly evident that the name-calling is just that - sensitivity to the peculiar position of English nationalism.

It's legitimate for an Irishman, a Scot or a Welshman to promote nationalism (and political parties exist to do so in each country) but if an 'English National Party' was established it would be frowned upon.

As 'racists', of course.

Hence, the English are naturally resentful. It's an interesting conundrum and, in fact, I sympathise with them.


[Walterp looks round, startled, and mutters "What? One has, already...?"]

Walter, you really need to take a long, hard, look at yourself. Nearly all your posts have an anti-English slant, your disdain for the English is palpable ( or at least that's how you're coming across to me ). It's a great shame that your undoubted intellect is devoted to such negativity; the persistent anti-English rhetoric is wearing. You seem to take every possible opportunity to denigrate the English, and 'racism' is the most obvious explanation.

Englishman or not, I don't like to be put in a box and labelled, my nationality doesn't mean I wish to be associated with, or judged by, everything my government does, or has done in the past. Racism, however subtle, is deeply offensive to me.
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
Englishman or not, I don't like to be put in a box and labelled, my nationality doesn't mean I wish to be associated with, or judged by, everything my government does, or has done in the past. Racism, however subtle, is deeply offensive to me.
What government would you be referring to ?
 

Walterp

Member
Location
Pembrokeshire
Walter, you really need to take a long, hard, look at yourself. Nearly all your posts have an anti-English slant, your disdain for the English is palpable ( or at least that's how you're coming across to me ). It's a great shame that your undoubted intellect is devoted to such negativity; the persistent anti-English rhetoric is wearing. You seem to take every possible opportunity to denigrate the English, and 'racism' is the most obvious explanation.

Englishman or not, I don't like to be put in a box and labelled, my nationality doesn't mean I wish to be associated with, or judged by, everything my government does, or has done in the past. Racism, however subtle, is deeply offensive to me.
You have no evidence that I have ever discriminated against, or been prejudiced against, the English. That's because there is none.

However, it is plain that you are sensitive about your national identity.

Rather than blame me, unjustly, for this state of affairs, why not ask yourself 'why?'
 

Walterp

Member
Location
Pembrokeshire
At one instant you portray yourself as a one nation Conservative and pro European. You would implore us to "be European", I suppose, yet you deride the concept of Britishness which has worked well for 300 years, although there have been problems of course. Nothing is ever perfect but some are better than others.

i suppose you would rather see an "independent" Wales as a region of the EU, just as the SNP would rather bow to Brussels than cooperate with Westminster. The problem is that all of that is a bit of an untried muddle. So I'll stick with being British, thank you.
I try hard not to portray myself as anything, being more interested in analysis than conviction. If you think you have my convictions nailed, you are doing rather better than I, in this post-political era.

You are, I suspect, rather closer to the reality with your observations on the Irish, the Welsh and the Scots - they all cleave to power rather than to the past, in their selection of a largely-artificial supra-national identity.

Federalism is, in this light, an attractive proposition for small nations, but not for formerly imperial ones - it's one of the reasons federalism doesn't go down well in England.
 

turbo

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
lincs
You have no evidence that I have ever discriminated against, or been prejudiced against, the English. That's because there is none.

However, it is plain that you are sensitive about your national identity.

Rather than blame me, unjustly, for this state of affairs, why not ask yourself 'why?'
Nearly every thread of yours has some anti English slant in it somewhere even when the facts don't back it up you carry on or start yet another thread
 
Last edited:

Pond digger

Never Forgotten
Honorary Member
Location
East Yorkshire
You have no evidence that I have ever discriminated against, or been prejudiced against, the English. That's because there is none.

However, it is plain that you are sensitive about your national identity.

Rather than blame me, unjustly, for this state of affairs, why not ask yourself 'why?'
No, I'm not sensitive about my national identity, I'm sensitive about racism, and you're the most racist person on this forum.
 
I think as an Englishman @Walterp is probably about right, being English and British is the same thing to an Englishman but not to a Scot etc.
I think that the majority of the ruling class in the SE of England tend to look at them selves as ruling the Scots, Welsh and Irish in the 'British' way , certainly not ruling them in a representative way.
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
I think as an Englishman @Walterp is probably about right, being English and British is the same thing to an Englishman but not to a Scot etc.
I think that the majority of the ruling class in the SE of England tend to look at them selves as ruling the Scots, Welsh and Irish in the 'British' way , certainly not ruling them in a representative way.
And some scots welsh and most likely ni seem to think the whole of england and all the english are inside the bloody m25
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
I think as an Englishman @Walterp is probably about right, being English and British is the same thing to an Englishman but not to a Scot etc.
I think that the majority of the ruling class in the SE of England tend to look at them selves as ruling the Scots, Welsh and Irish in the 'British' way , certainly not ruling them in a representative way.

Not so sure. I know quite a few scots and northern Irish who are more British than the English. Unionists.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 81 42.2%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 68 35.4%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 30 15.6%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 7 3.6%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,294
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
Top