Bees: Pesticide restrictions must be extended to wheat - new Friends of the Earth report

Discussion in 'Cropping' started by llamedos, Jan 5, 2017.

  1. dontknowanything

    Location:
    Cambridge
    Did you mean to quote me, or did you mean to quote @fudge , because as you will no doubt have seen in several of my posts, I've said that I think subsidising Organic is not a good idea.
     
  2. turbo

    turbo Member

    Location:
    lincs
    I'll play devils once more,if foe wants less chemicals put onto crops why won't they look at gm crops again,it is my belief that insect resistance crops are just that resistance to pest,it doesn't kill them just repels them. I Also think the technology could help get more nutrition into the food that we have today ,a win win situation for all conserned
     
    dontknowanything likes this.
  3. dontknowanything

    Location:
    Cambridge
    I don't think that's true in most cases - for example doesn't BT maize/cotton use a gene from baccilus thurengensis (spelling probably wrong) that makes a substance that's poisonous to the pests?

    I think GM tech is great, but I don't think it works for the farmer - see massively increased seed prices in US since introduction of GM. And for God's sake, please let's not get Roundup Ready.
     
  4. Fromebridge

    Fromebridge Member

    Location:
    Glos
    Sorry, just looking for any reference to subsidising I could find.
     
  5. shakerator

    shakerator Member

    Location:
    LINCS
    The organic lobby were very keen on cry proteins as natural pest control before the patenting of the trait in a seed !
     
  6. turbo

    turbo Member

    Location:
    lincs
    I Think you are probably right I just think i read somewhere that the next generation of GM crops are resistant and repel the insects
     
  7. as I have stated the bigger picture is that farmers will not grow the crops that help bees if we go back to a rotation of wheat grass and barley with no beans or rape the number of nector produced crops will be zero
    that is no bees in that crop rotation my local bee farmers relies on us to grow nector producing crops beans and oil seed rape
    in 2014 and 2015 he produced 11 and 12 tonnes of honey the beans field were full of honey bees as well as may bumble bees without these crops he has no business and there would be very few bees as there was before os rape and beans were grown
     
  8. Sandra Bell

    Sandra Bell New Member


    I think that that is really the job of an independent, transparent, and science based regulatory system rather than NGOs. There are aspects of the current system which need improvement – for example it has been recognised by EFSA that when neonics were approved there were significant gaps in the way impacts on bees were assessed – especially impacts on wild bees - and these are yet to be fully resolved. We need a system that we can all have confidence in but we are now faced with more uncertainty as the UK negotiates its exit from the EU”
     
  9. shakerator

    shakerator Member

    Location:
    LINCS
    Aspirin
     
  10. Brisel

    Brisel Member

    Location:
    Dorset
    That sidesteps the issue. Would FOE be prepared to acknowledge and participate in an impact assessment i.e. what the alternatives are?

    Yellowbelly has a valid point. The loss of osr to flea beetle means there is less osr grown now in favour of less open flowering crops. Who is the real loser in this? Some disorientated bees or all pollinating insects? I host 48 hives here for someone who has 650 hives in total. Osr is the difference between him being a professional beekeeper and an amateur one. Last year he made 29 tonnes of honey, 16 of which came from oilseed rape crops. He would rather see the same area of osr grown with neonic seed dressings and risk some bee losses instead of half the area grown without.
     
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  11. dontknowanything

    Location:
    Cambridge
    what's the rate/ha?
     
  12. dontknowanything

    Location:
    Cambridge
    God I hate this argument.

    "If you don't let me use neonics, I'm going home AND I'm taking my ball with me. Waah waah waah I can't possibly farm without a pesticide".

    Not even a hint of "let's try and find a better way", which in my mind is the way to improving our farms and hopefully our countryside too.
     
  13. shakerator

    shakerator Member

    Location:
    LINCS
    2 pills per gallon liberally sprayed so I've heard

    We have bred the salicyclic acid stress response out of cereals inadvertently
     
  14. shakerator

    shakerator Member

    Location:
    LINCS
    It's a global race and if others can use them you can bet bottom $ the competitive oil/ protein will be imported . Pesticides generally cheaper than cultural prevention (labour diesel and steel cover crops special nutrients etc) Or would you like a global neonic ban? Or a ban on neonic tested produce imported ?
     
    Brisel likes this.
  15. dontknowanything

    Location:
    Cambridge
    OK, this I can get on board with.

    If we are stopped from using something for environmental reasons, then it should also be banned in imports. I'm 100% behind that.
     
    Dan Powell, yellow belly and turbo like this.
  16. it is not a case of taking the ball home
    its if farmers lose money on a crop they stop growing it bees realy thrive when there is an abundance of nector
    no beans and osr then no nector then no bees which comes first
    without proper pest control either chemical or resistances the crop cannot make money what ever the subsidy
    gm is not allowed so resistance will take decades to develop that leaves chemical which is not allowed
    the only farming solution is not to grow the crop '
    in the 1980s csfb in rape was a big problem around here so the area of rape fell until neonics came about
    I foresee that rape area will fall until we have a solution rape has become a crop that is harder to grow on heavy land without building up unsolvable pest and weed problems
    there are solutions if regulation allowed them to be used

    the claimed disorientation of bees by neonics is not a problem identified in the field
    with my local bee farmer he does not suffer from a loss of bees unless a hive swarms because of too many bees he spends a lot of time trying to prevent swarming and has tried to breed bees that do not swarm
    the biggest loss of hives is from not feeding them early enough in the autumn
    the biggest loss of bumble bee colonies is badgers digging out the colonies
    does any one study the problem no why no money for research and the answer does not suit the researchers
     
  17. fudge

    fudge Member

    I agree with brisel, that is a cop out. The suspicion is that no system would be good enough. Farmers and advisors have to make practical decisions in an imperfect world. If you don't think the current system is good enough there can be little common ground between FOE. and most farmers IMO. Since it is highly unlikely that a better regulatory system can be produced in the time aloud.
     
  18. martian likes this.
  19. Brisel

    Brisel Member

    Location:
    Dorset
    I expected better from you. You've also ignored my other posts about viable alternatives :rolleyes: 3 years ago I was growing 4 crops in the rotation. 3 were winter crops (wheat, barley & osr) all with neonic seed dressings. The 4th was spring barley with no insecticides at all. Now I grow wheat with Deter but the rest don't have any neonics. Ok, so I would have used neonics if I could still do so. Half are spring crops with preceeding cover crops grown without any insecticides. Happy now?

    Ask what former osr growers in Herts/Beds/Essex/Cambs are doing for bees these days. If I can't grow crops without pest protection i.e. profitably then I won't grow those crops. Not very sustainable.

    So, what is the better way?
     
  20. when the bees main contact is from crops with seed dressing in august when they forage in the following summer what is the evidence
    bees do not forage in wheat or rape crops in the autumn they fly over them at 2 m high and visit some trees and heather my local bee farmer has never seen a problem with seed dressings where the rate is very low and degraded by the spring
    his biggest problem in the future will be reduced areas of nector producing crops which will concentrate the bees and lead to over crowding of nector crops and spread of bee diseases overstocking is a problem for bees as with any livestock it is only basic husbandry which we learnt before going to ag college
     
    Hindsight likes this.

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