Bees: Pesticide restrictions must be extended to wheat - new Friends of the Earth report

Location
Cambridge
I don't see how subsidising organic production, presumably to get more growers doing it, would make up for the significant shortfall in output and our reduced ability to feed the world, even if every conventional farm converted.

As said before, we have an unnatural number of people on this planet, hence we have to use unnatural food production systems in order to feed them (unfortunately).
Did you mean to quote me, or did you mean to quote @fudge , because as you will no doubt have seen in several of my posts, I've said that I think subsidising Organic is not a good idea.
 

turbo

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
lincs
I'll play devils once more,if foe wants less chemicals put onto crops why won't they look at gm crops again,it is my belief that insect resistance crops are just that resistance to pest,it doesn't kill them just repels them. I Also think the technology could help get more nutrition into the food that we have today ,a win win situation for all conserned
 
Location
Cambridge
I'll play devils once more,if foe wants less chemicals put onto crops why won't they look at gm crops again,it is my belief that insect resistance crops are just that resistance to pest,it doesn't kill them just repels them. I Also think the technology could help get more nutrition into the food that we have today ,a win win situation for all conserned
I don't think that's true in most cases - for example doesn't BT maize/cotton use a gene from baccilus thurengensis (spelling probably wrong) that makes a substance that's poisonous to the pests?

I think GM tech is great, but I don't think it works for the farmer - see massively increased seed prices in US since introduction of GM. And for God's sake, please let's not get Roundup Ready.
 

shakerator

Member
Location
LINCS
I don't think that's true in most cases - for example doesn't BT maize/cotton use a gene from baccilus thurengensis (spelling probably wrong) that makes a substance that's poisonous to the pests?

I think GM tech is great, but I don't think it works for the farmer - see massively increased seed prices in US since introduction of GM. And for God's sake, please let's not get Roundup Ready.

The organic lobby were very keen on cry proteins as natural pest control before the patenting of the trait in a seed !
 

turbo

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
lincs
I don't think that's true in most cases - for example doesn't BT maize/cotton use a gene from baccilus thurengensis (spelling probably wrong) that makes a substance that's poisonous to the pests?

I think GM tech is great, but I don't think it works for the farmer - see massively increased seed prices in US since introduction of GM. And for God's sake, please let's not get Roundup Ready.
I Think you are probably right I just think i read somewhere that the next generation of GM crops are resistant and repel the insects
 
Neonic residues have been found in pollen collected from crops and wildflowers: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.est.5b03459

Here is a brief round up of just some of the other evidence on neonics:

Only around 5% of pesticide is absorbed into the crop with the rest released as dust (1%) or absorbed into the soil and water (94%).

Exposure to neonicotinoid seed-treated oilseed rape crops has been linked to long-term population decline of wild bee species across the English countryside over a 17-year period.

It’s not just honeybees threatened. Solitary and bumblebees look to be even more vulnerable to neonics according to field trials conducted in Sweden.

Buff-tailed bumblebees and honeybees can’t taste the 3 restricted neonicotinoid pesticides. In-fact the chemical similarity to nicotine could be acting on their brains to keep them coming back for more.

And continuing the restrictions on neonics on oilseed rape doesn't need to mean the end of oilseed rape as we've been hearing from several rapeseed oil producers featured here http://www.rapeseedoilguide.com/ and several farmers including these two have shared their experience of producing oilseed rape with and without neoincs: https://www.foe.co.uk/page/farming-pollinators-profit and https://www.foe.co.uk/page/growing-oilseed-rape-farming-with-without-neonics

The neonic restrictions on oilseed rape will be in place for at least another year and could be made permanent. We want the Government and research institutions to prioritise R&D into alternative ways of controlling pests like flea beetle - to help bees and farmers - finding solutions that work for farmers needs to go hand in hand with restricting harmful products.
@sandrambell
as I have stated the bigger picture is that farmers will not grow the crops that help bees if we go back to a rotation of wheat grass and barley with no beans or rape the number of nector produced crops will be zero
that is no bees in that crop rotation my local bee farmers relies on us to grow nector producing crops beans and oil seed rape
in 2014 and 2015 he produced 11 and 12 tonnes of honey the beans field were full of honey bees as well as may bumble bees without these crops he has no business and there would be very few bees as there was before os rape and beans were grown
 

Sandra Bell

New Member
I accept the need to minimise pesticide use on economic grounds if nothing else.
FOE see them as a last resort. Do FOE have a list of pesticides they would be happy to see retained for use as a "last resort" of course.


I think that that is really the job of an independent, transparent, and science based regulatory system rather than NGOs. There are aspects of the current system which need improvement – for example it has been recognised by EFSA that when neonics were approved there were significant gaps in the way impacts on bees were assessed – especially impacts on wild bees - and these are yet to be fully resolved. We need a system that we can all have confidence in but we are now faced with more uncertainty as the UK negotiates its exit from the EU”
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
I think that that is really the job of an independent, transparent, and science based regulatory system rather than NGOs. There are aspects of the current system which need improvement – for example it has been recognised by EFSA that when neonics were approved there were significant gaps in the way impacts on bees were assessed – especially impacts on wild bees - and these are yet to be fully resolved. We need a system that we can all have confidence in but we are now faced with more uncertainty as the UK negotiates its exit from the EU”

That sidesteps the issue. Would FOE be prepared to acknowledge and participate in an impact assessment i.e. what the alternatives are?

Yellowbelly has a valid point. The loss of osr to flea beetle means there is less osr grown now in favour of less open flowering crops. Who is the real loser in this? Some disorientated bees or all pollinating insects? I host 48 hives here for someone who has 650 hives in total. Osr is the difference between him being a professional beekeeper and an amateur one. Last year he made 29 tonnes of honey, 16 of which came from oilseed rape crops. He would rather see the same area of osr grown with neonic seed dressings and risk some bee losses instead of half the area grown without.
 
Location
Cambridge
That sidesteps the issue. Would FOE be prepared to acknowledge and participate in an impact assessment i.e. what the alternatives are?

Yellowbelly has a valid point. The loss of osr to flea beetle means there is less osr grown now in favour of less open flowering crops. Who is the real loser in this? Some disorientated bees or all pollinating insects? I host 48 hives here for someone who has 650 hives in total. Osr is the difference between him being a professional beekeeper and an amateur one. Last year he made 29 tonnes of honey, 16 of which came from oilseed rape crops. He would rather see the same area of osr grown with neonic seed dressings and risk some bee losses instead of half the area grown without.
God I hate this argument.

"If you don't let me use neonics, I'm going home AND I'm taking my ball with me. Waah waah waah I can't possibly farm without a pesticide".

Not even a hint of "let's try and find a better way", which in my mind is the way to improving our farms and hopefully our countryside too.
 

shakerator

Member
Location
LINCS
God I hate this argument.

"If you don't let me use neonics, I'm going home AND I'm taking my ball with me. Waah waah waah I can't possibly farm without a pesticide".

Not even a hint of "let's try and find a better way", which in my mind is the way to improving our farms and hopefully our countryside too.

It's a global race and if others can use them you can bet bottom $ the competitive oil/ protein will be imported . Pesticides generally cheaper than cultural prevention (labour diesel and steel cover crops special nutrients etc) Or would you like a global neonic ban? Or a ban on neonic tested produce imported ?
 
Location
Cambridge
It's a global race and if others can use them you can bet bottom $ the competitive oil/ protein will be imported . Pesticides generally cheaper than cultural prevention. Or would you like a global neonic ban?
OK, this I can get on board with.

If we are stopped from using something for environmental reasons, then it should also be banned in imports. I'm 100% behind that.
 
God I hate this argument.

"If you don't let me use neonics, I'm going home AND I'm taking my ball with me. Waah waah waah I can't possibly farm without a pesticide".

Not even a hint of "let's try and find a better way", which in my mind is the way to improving our farms and hopefully our countryside too.
it is not a case of taking the ball home
its if farmers lose money on a crop they stop growing it bees realy thrive when there is an abundance of nector
no beans and osr then no nector then no bees which comes first
without proper pest control either chemical or resistances the crop cannot make money what ever the subsidy
gm is not allowed so resistance will take decades to develop that leaves chemical which is not allowed
the only farming solution is not to grow the crop '
in the 1980s csfb in rape was a big problem around here so the area of rape fell until neonics came about
I foresee that rape area will fall until we have a solution rape has become a crop that is harder to grow on heavy land without building up unsolvable pest and weed problems
there are solutions if regulation allowed them to be used

the claimed disorientation of bees by neonics is not a problem identified in the field
with my local bee farmer he does not suffer from a loss of bees unless a hive swarms because of too many bees he spends a lot of time trying to prevent swarming and has tried to breed bees that do not swarm
the biggest loss of hives is from not feeding them early enough in the autumn
the biggest loss of bumble bee colonies is badgers digging out the colonies
does any one study the problem no why no money for research and the answer does not suit the researchers
 

fudge

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire.
I think that that is really the job of an independent, transparent, and science based regulatory system rather than NGOs. There are aspects of the current system which need improvement – for example it has been recognised by EFSA that when neonics were approved there were significant gaps in the way impacts on bees were assessed – especially impacts on wild bees - and these are yet to be fully resolved. We need a system that we can all have confidence in but we are now faced with more uncertainty as the UK negotiates its exit from the EU”
I agree with brisel, that is a cop out. The suspicion is that no system would be good enough. Farmers and advisors have to make practical decisions in an imperfect world. If you don't think the current system is good enough there can be little common ground between FOE. and most farmers IMO. Since it is highly unlikely that a better regulatory system can be produced in the time aloud.
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
God I hate this argument.

"If you don't let me use neonics, I'm going home AND I'm taking my ball with me. Waah waah waah I can't possibly farm without a pesticide".

Not even a hint of "let's try and find a better way", which in my mind is the way to improving our farms and hopefully our countryside too.

I expected better from you. You've also ignored my other posts about viable alternatives :rolleyes: 3 years ago I was growing 4 crops in the rotation. 3 were winter crops (wheat, barley & osr) all with neonic seed dressings. The 4th was spring barley with no insecticides at all. Now I grow wheat with Deter but the rest don't have any neonics. Ok, so I would have used neonics if I could still do so. Half are spring crops with preceeding cover crops grown without any insecticides. Happy now?

Ask what former osr growers in Herts/Beds/Essex/Cambs are doing for bees these days. If I can't grow crops without pest protection i.e. profitably then I won't grow those crops. Not very sustainable.

So, what is the better way?
 
I haven't looked at length at the evidence, but I think your statement, especially without any references, is unfounded. Here's just one example: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.est.6b02658.

Whilst I'm at it, for those without journal access, here's a decent overview of the situation in 2013:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1365-2664.12111/full
when the bees main contact is from crops with seed dressing in august when they forage in the following summer what is the evidence
bees do not forage in wheat or rape crops in the autumn they fly over them at 2 m high and visit some trees and heather my local bee farmer has never seen a problem with seed dressings where the rate is very low and degraded by the spring
his biggest problem in the future will be reduced areas of nector producing crops which will concentrate the bees and lead to over crowding of nector crops and spread of bee diseases overstocking is a problem for bees as with any livestock it is only basic husbandry which we learnt before going to ag college
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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