Belgian Blue Bull

[GenuineRisk]

@Henarar - you have never looked at the Belgian Linear scores then? They've been compiling those records for far longer than EBVs have been around....... Every bull is examined before semen becomes available by a panel, every aspect of the bull is scored out of a hundred, tested for all the known genetic defects and has to be clear of those before being offered commercially. Their calving figures are, of course, very different to here but most 'British' Blues are at best maybe three or four generations back from 'Belgian' genetics and most less. Also, remember, their herds are pure - there are very few cross bred herds in Belgium - their markets are very different to ours. The only reason we had the change of name from Belgian to British was because of appeasing Tesco and trying to distance ourselves from the routine c-sections that the Belgians do. That dust up happened before you started breeding pedigree Blues, I believe...?

That said, there is, admittedly, a slow realization that times, they are a-changing and a little more emphasis is given to calving ease over there now. They are also very driven to improving the milkiness of the current cow population, as of course the Blue was very much a dual purpose animal in Belgium until quite recently and you still see plenty of Blues going through the parlour alongside Black and Whites. It's a trait we need to remember to keep to the fore here in the UK too.

Tamhorn Blossom, a completely natural calving cow that I know you admire, is by a Belgian bull - Vigors - out of a cow by Affute, one of the most 'Belgian' bulls around ! The Belgians just don't ever try and calve their cows - it's an historical ingrained habit because sections cost less then €100, cows have three and then go in the fattening pen and cull cow prices are top dollar. To go out and find a cow calved in the field is an 'accident', we were told! Do I approve ? No, I don't - we calve everything here and always try and have our pedigrees calve naturally - why wouldn't we - it's cheaper! But we also won't risk a high value calf or its mother either if neither of us are happy when calving starts and hands go in!

I can hand on my heart say we haven't yet had a dairy cow have a section because of Blue genetics ! Think there's been two sections in past 13 years since the Blues were used on the cows, one was a definite Schmallenberg, the other was a bought in heifer in calf to a Lim. It's a flying dairy herd, the dairy heifers will get sexed dairy semen and those that don't take go to our 'shite' Lim bull - himself a 26yo embryo - all the cows then only ever see one of the Blue bulls. The herd is a complete mix from pure Holstein through British Friesians, NZ style breds and a lot of Jersians - they all calve in fine but - and it's a big 'but' again, they are under CCTV come calving or out in field closest to house at this time of year and checked regularly. Which I know doesn't suit everyone but the Blue crosses make more money for Newlands than any other xbred store ever has and so needs must, as every extra penny counts. NewPole sends semen straws across from Belgian or British bulls to the Newlands dairy that we've used and weren't pleased with regularly - they'll get chucked in a dairy cow and be perfectly acceptable!

Genetically, we have to rely on bringing in Belgian bulls, because there just aren't enough so-called 'British' Blue bulls around (I'd class anything British as five generations both side of pure 'British' breeding - same as most breeds/species. would). We always look at linear scores carefully as well as looking at the actual bull as well - the main Belgian AI /studs do a great job of taking videos these days of every bull they market as well as plenty of photos etc of progeny and the dam side too. It's called looking at cow porn on the net here!! We now are able to get semen very easily privately and quickly of bulls that appeal for our cows and are starting to see the results on the ground - exciting times for us but, of course, we will and do get it wrong from time to time but, when we do, progeny don't get registered or they are deregistered. We are constantly looking to develop our cow families and it's a fine line to provide the muscling that makes the Blue what it is, plus retain the quiet temperament and all the other desirable traits, or going too far. It's easy to breed a Blue bull that will calve naturally because it lacks a bit of shape. It's not quite so easy to breed a really shapely bull that will breed well over a huge variety of different of commercial cows! As the current trend for 'Red Blues' (ie Lims) and other double muscled continentals are discovering.... you need muscling combined with fine bone to be successful which is why massively tall Blues with a lot of bone and muscle isn't the best idea ever....

 

[Henarar]

All very interesting but I wasn't having a go at Belgian bulls quite the opposite if you read my post, I was just wondering why they seem to have bad figures when used on our system
Think you had your first blue calves a couple years before we did but we had a blue bull for some years before that
I thing the creation of the British Blue herd was a good thing and "we" were right to distance ourselves from the practice of cutting out every calf, Given the Belgian blues bad rep for calving when they were first used over here [yes we used them and had some great calves and some dead ones] I think that British blues should be bred with calving ease at the forefront and everything else secondary to that, as a commercial suckler farmer I know dead calf is a f**king disaster and so is having to cut them out, there is no money to be made out of that

 

[Pieces_of_Eight]

Straws were given to me. And I don't have a dairy cow!

Even better.

Try him on someone else's

 

[GenuineRisk]

I was explaining that they do have figures and have had way before EBVs here came into play - just in a different format but there for all to see if they choose to. My point being that you seem to be inferring that the British Blue is now a totally different beast to that in Belgium, which I don't believe it is. If the Belgians in general chose to actually calve their cows (as opposed to heifers which are put in calf earlier than here to a pure Blue), they'd probably find a fair number would calve naturally but they have a different attitude to here. If you want total calving ease before anything else and by that, my definition is not touching the calf / cow at all, then you will lose a fair amount of muscle. And that muscling is the key unique selling point of the Blue - if we lose it, it's goodbye market share because there are other better breeds for early dlwg and possibly existing better calving ease. The biggest market share for the Blue is on the dairy cow - it's the only breed with a still expanding market share - and it's essential we provide bulls that have good muscle as well as being as easy calving as possible and that will mean some sections on pedigrees or recips because it's only by using the varying genetics available we can find out what is going to be 'right' - it's almost a numbers game at the moment. Also, without doubt, the numbers having sections varies hugely - this past winter we had sections on cows that have always calved naturally - it was a mild winter, everything did a bit too well and our calves were bigger than usual - cow management plays a massive part in calving ease without doubt,

Our first pedigree calves were registered as A reg, btw - some six years earlier and we'd also used Blues on the dairy herd. So far, there some 160 registered pedigree NewPole Blues as opposed to 16 Ding Valley's (we're just about to register our 'M' s!) which is absolutely not a criticism but in all honesty, it's not possible to compare the two herds because each has different end games. We're trying to breed bulls for two markets, dairy AI studs and dairy herds and commercial suckler herds too and so we do have different genetics to most other herds, who tend to stick to 'known' genetics - again, no criticism but it's why we will never win a herd competition nor particularly want to as we don't have a suant herd at all - there are some very varied phenotypes. It's definitely horses for courses if you'll forgive the pun ! The great thing is that there enthusiastic supporters of Blues from all different aspects of livestock productionNd long may that continue!

 

[AGN76]

I was explaining that they do have figures and have had way before EBVs here came into play - just in a different format but there for all to see if they choose to. My point being that you seem to be inferring that the British Blue is now a totally different beast to that in Belgium, which I don't believe it is. If the Belgians in general chose to actually calve their cows (as opposed to heifers which are put in calf earlier than here to a pure Blue), they'd probably find a fair number would calve naturally but they have a different attitude to here. If you want total calving ease before anything else and by that, my definition is not touching the calf / cow at all, then you will lose a fair amount of muscle. And that muscling is the key unique selling point of the Blue - if we lose it, it's goodbye market share because there are other better breeds for early dlwg and possibly existing better calving ease. The biggest market share for the Blue is on the dairy cow - it's the only breed with a still expanding market share - and it's essential we provide bulls that have good muscle as well as being as easy calving as possible and that will mean some sections on pedigrees or recips because it's only by using the varying genetics available we can find out what is going to be 'right' - it's almost a numbers game at the moment. Also, without doubt, the numbers having sections varies hugely - this past winter we had sections on cows that have always calved naturally - it was a mild winter, everything did a bit too well and our calves were bigger than usual - cow management plays a massive part in calving ease without doubt,

Our first pedigree calves were registered as A reg, btw - some six years earlier and we'd also used Blues on the dairy herd. So far, there some 160 registered pedigree NewPole Blues as opposed to 16 Ding Valley's (we're just about to register our 'M' s!) which is absolutely not a criticism but in all honesty, it's not possible to compare the two herds because each has different end games. We're trying to breed bulls for two markets, dairy AI studs and dairy herds and commercial suckler herds too and so we do have different genetics to most other herds, who tend to stick to 'known' genetics - again, no criticism but it's why we will never win a herd competition nor particularly want to as we don't have a suant herd at all - there are some very varied phenotypes. It's definitely horses for courses if you'll forgive the pun ! The great thing is that there enthusiastic supporters of Blues from all different aspects of livestock productionNd long may that continue!

What about a 3rd market, maternal? That is what I use Blues for, for producing replacements, and they never lack milk. Is that an attribute the Blue society will ever promote? I have only ever seen one bull promoted as being a female producer - Twyning Ash Ukulele

 

[muleman]

Nobody wants plain British blues with very little muscle,i love muscly blue calves but not much worse than a plain blue,be better using lim than easy calvin blues

 

[Henarar]

What about a 3rd market, maternal? That is what I use Blues for, for producing replacements, and they never lack milk. Is that an attribute the Blue society will ever promote? I have only ever seen one bull promoted as being a female producer - Twyning Ash Ukulele

He is Ukulele sired bull out of a very milky cow we have, and also our stock bull
When he was about 18 months old a buyer walked past him saying he was way to good for what he wanted and went on to buy another of our bulls, I wouldn't have sold him anyway [but he didn't know that] as we wanted to use him ourselves and had already turned down an offer from an AI company for him

 

[topground]

View attachment 538602
He is Ukulele sired bull out of a very milky cow we have, and also our stock bull
When he was about 18 months old a buyer walked past him saying he was way to good for what he wanted and went on to buy another of our bulls, I wouldn't have sold him anyway [but he didn't know that] as we wanted to use him ourselves and had already turned down an offer from an AI company for him

Now that you have your own flask and @farmerclare is on the case will you take semen from this lad for the long term future?

 

[GenuineRisk]

What about a 3rd market, maternal? That is what I use Blues for, for producing replacements, and they never lack milk. Is that an attribute the Blue society will ever promote? I have only ever seen one bull promoted as being a female producer - Twyning Ash Ukulele

Interesting point and personally, as I don't hold the highest opinion of how our Society goes about promoting our breed, especially down here in the south, pox ridden bTB hotspot that is the SW, I wouldn't hold my breath about that particular trait. Blues should be milky - as said above, it's not that long since they were in parlours all over Belgium and there has been more than one Bluex going through Newlands parlour when they were short of replacements and milking reasonably well, too. They certainly are a maternal breed with little or no post calving aggression in our experience, although we do get the very odd calf proud mum but that's acceptable as long as it lasts no longer than 48 - 72 hours and plenty of milk. All our recips tend to be from Newlands - a mix of Limx / Bluex Jersians, as we take the 'less saleable' heifers which won't make as much at Sedgemoor. We can also blood test them before they set hoof over here and if they fail any, they get shipped off to J24 regardless.

That's a very decent bull, @Henarar and no wonder you're pleased with him. We can't afford to turn down AI companies so he'd have gone if he'd passed all his tests and, of course, we had been bTB free for previous four years. White bulls still here at two years old wouldn't be a common sight these days, although we have one baby bull at the moment who may not get offered up but may just be a project for U.K. Sires !! Newlands can't afford our white bulls anymore and have made do with black bulls these past few years....

 

[Henarar]

Our first pedigree calves were registered as A reg, btw - some six years earlier and we'd also used Blues on the dairy herd. So far, there some 160 registered pedigree NewPole Blues as opposed to 16 Ding Valley's (we're just about to register our 'M' s!) which is absolutely not a criticism but in all honesty, it's not possible to compare the two herds because each has different end games. We're trying to breed bulls for two markets, dairy AI studs and dairy herds and commercial suckler herds too and so we do have different genetics to most other herds, who tend to stick to 'known' genetics - again, no criticism but it's why we will never win a herd competition nor particularly want to as we don't have a suant herd at all - there are some very varied phenotypes. It's definitely horses for courses if you'll forgive the pun ! The great thing is that there enthusiastic supporters of Blues from all different aspects of livestock productionNd long may that continue!

I am sure you know far more about the job than I do having produced more calves and it being your main job producing ped blues and all the ET you do and work with AI company's and showing you do and we are only commercial suck cow farmers that run a few peds in the herd so we have a decent bull for our own use when we need one

If you had seen our herd you would be hard push to say they were suant apart from colour and they are just kept with the commercial cattle, judge seemed to like them though

 

[Henarar]

That's a very decent bull, @Henarar and no wonder you're pleased with him. We can't afford to turn down AI companies so he'd have gone if he'd passed all his tests and, of course, we had been bTB free for previous four years. White bulls still here at two years old wouldn't be a common sight these days,

Thank you, we are very pleased with him and his calves
You don't run commercial sucklers though, that's why we kept him

This is one of the other bulls we are using at the moment sweeping a bunch of heifers

 

[Henarar]

Interesting point and personally, as I don't hold the highest opinion of how our Society goes about promoting our breed, especially down here in the south, pox ridden bTB hotspot that is the SW, I wouldn't hold my breath about that particular trait. Blues should be milky - as said above, it's not that long since they were in parlours all over Belgium and there has been more than one Bluex going through Newlands parlour when they were short of replacements and milking reasonably well, too. They certainly are a maternal breed with little or no post calving aggression in our experience

We ran a few BF cross BB cows when we were milking and they were not to bad, lots of folk fail to see blues maternal ability and when they are corrected they fail to listen

 

[liammogs]

Main factor of using a bbx dairy cow as a suckler cow, you have 50% blood of the bb double muscle, put her to a good (not freaky) lim bull and youll have a vood comercail calf! Not only the double muscling but remember a bb will have a shorter gestation!! Smaller calves and easier calving (in theroy)

 

[Purli R]

Straws were given to me.

I wonder why?

@Henarar - you have never looked at the Belgian Linear scores then? They've been compiling those records for far longer than EBVs have been around....... Every bull is examined before semen becomes available by a panel, every aspect of the bull is scored out of a hundred

https://www.hbbbb.be/en/index-pedigree/391622880

 

[Purli R]

If you want total calving ease before anything else and by that, my definition is not touching the calf / cow at all, then you will lose a fair amount of muscle.

Err you could, if you picked the 'low birthweight' type of bull. But if you went down the 'less than average birthweight, coupled with a short gestation, and, probably wrong for a dairy farmer, the not much muscle at birth, but fills out nicely, then you can get easier than AA calving.

 

[M-J-G]

View attachment 538602
He is Ukulele sired bull out of a very milky cow we have, and also our stock bull
When he was about 18 months old a buyer walked past him saying he was way to good for what he wanted and went on to buy another of our bulls, I wouldn't have sold him anyway [but he didn't know that] as we wanted to use him ourselves and had already turned down an offer from an AI company for him

Normally if the want them enough they will collect and sell semen off bulls that the farmer still owns.

 

[Henarar]

Normally if the want them enough they will collect and sell semen off bulls that the farmer still owns.

perhaps they were not that keen really then and just messing me about, all so well I made it very clear he was not for sale to save wasting my time

 

[Henarar]

Now that you have your own flask and @farmerclare is on the case will you take semen from this lad for the long term future?

Never done it and we are not sure what is involved, we should have done that with the first blue bull we had, not seen one like him since

 

[topground]

Never done it and we are not sure what is involved, we should have done that with the first blue bull we had, not seen one like him since

http://www.uksireservices.com
This company will collect on farm. It looks as though they have forgotten to add the details of the practicalities but an email to them will sort out their requirements and the cost. If you have a bull that would be difficult to replace and are set up for AI it would seem to make sense. You can also sell straws out of their store.
If you went down this route your experience shared would make for an interestng thread!

 

[M-J-G]

http://www.uksireservices.com
This company will collect on farm. It looks as though they have forgotten to add the details of the practicalities but an email to them will sort out their requirements and the cost. If you have a bull that would be difficult to replace and are set up for AI it would seem to make sense. You can also sell straws out of their store.
If you went down this route your experience shared would make for an interestng thread!

Can you sell out off their store if it's an on farm collection?