Ben Taylor-Davies black grass talk

[Hindsight]

I would love to able to conduct my own controlled assay of herbicide effectiveness, without any interference from any chemical company. I'd soon find out how effective these actives actually are. I bet 50% of them have less than 50% efficacy on black-grass before you bring resistance into the equation.

You just need to pay your fee and subscribe to NIABTAG and you will find those trials being conducted and have been for several years. No need to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Feldspar]

I meant many were permanent wheat wheat osr min till then jumped to two or three spring crops then back into wheat? I really do agree with how quickly it adapts and having a decent rotation of spring and winter crops along with a couple of soil health boosts establishment techniques should go a long way to keeping it in check as long as you stick to a diverse plan? Difficult one, his report really does make you think.

I think people have done what you describe, but maybe not for long enough and without, as he would argue, the right concepts guiding the strategy. I.e. putting a year of a different thing here and there, but not a sustained 3-5 years of spring cropping followed by 3-5 years of winter barley and OSR.

 

[Feldspar]

You just need to pay your fee and subscribe to NIABTAG and you will find those trials being conducted and have been for several years. No need to reinvent the wheel.

I simply don't understand why more agronomists aren't members. One of ours says it's too expensive. So I just tell him what he should be telling me to do instead! Might send him a bill.

 

[Neddy flanders]

Who is Ben Taylor- Davies?

 

[Feldspar]

Who is Ben Taylor- Davies?

Nuffield scholar

 

[shakerator]

Never seen any residual recommended for “good growing conditions “

Contacts yes they’re systemic.

Have felt if we had our time on bg again Atlantis should have been first in autumn at 1 leaf, then residuals when colder and wetter.

I do think soil herbicides are additive. But ALS and Accase chemistry is probably less effective on stressed plants, however we have very little wild oat resistance to ALS and axial

 

[Hindsight]

Never seen any residual recommended for “good growing conditions “

Contacts yes they’re systemic.

Have felt if we had our time on bg again Atlantis should have been first in autumn at 1 leaf, then residuals when colder and wetter.

I do think soil herbicides are additive. But ALS and Accase chemistry is probably less effective on stressed plants, however we have very little wild oat resistance to ALS and axial

Have felt if we had our time on bg again Atlantis should have been first in autumn at 1 leaf, then residuals when colder and wetter

Clarification required. My reading of this sentence is that you would sow wheat at 'conventional' time - early October, then apply Atlantis at 1 leaf and then follow with residuals later in autumn when cold and wetter - byt which time the wheat will be at growth stage 13 to 13,21 and blackgrass similar. Yet the observational evidence for years and umpteen trials is that efficacy of residual herbicide declines markedly once blackgrass emerges. Your proposed strategy goes completely against the observed evidence. Hey ho each to their own.

 

[Gong Farmer]

For those charts showing additional control of actives, are they applied sequentially or concomitantly with the base treatment?

If the ones I think you're referring to, with the base treatment as a tank mix (except Avadex, of course)

 

[Flat 10]

I will be annoying @Feldspar and say(without reading all your links) most of what you mention is logical and not particularly surprising. Most of it comes back to Darwin and selection pressures.....

 

[Feldspar]

I will be annoying @Feldspar and say(without reading all your links) most of what you mention is logical and not particularly surprising. Most of it comes back to Darwin and selection pressures.....

Yes, the mechanism is not new / surprising. I suppose what stuck me about his claims was the speed with which the population changed. For example, he talked about an organic farmer using a weed surfer to take the tops off black-grass in clover. Within only a few years most of the black-grass that grew would grow shorter so that it did not emerge out of the top of clover. It surprised me that there was sufficient diversity within the original population to allow a population shift to occur on this timescale.

 

[Flat 10]

Yes, the mechanism is not new / surprising. I suppose what stuck me about his claims was the speed with which the population changed. For example, he talked about an organic farmer using a weed surfer to take the tops off black-grass in clover. Within only a few years most of the black-grass that grew would grow shorter so that it did not emerge out of the top of clover. It surprised me that there was sufficient diversity within the original population to allow a population shift to occur on this timescale.

Numbers game @Feldspar

 

[Flat 10]

The whole point of lots of offspring is lots of diversity.

 

[shakerator]

Have felt if we had our time on bg again Atlantis should have been first in autumn at 1 leaf, then residuals when colder and wetter

Clarification required. My reading of this sentence is that you would sow wheat at 'conventional' time - early October, then apply Atlantis at 1 leaf and then follow with residuals later in autumn when cold and wetter - byt which time the wheat will be at growth stage 13 to 13,21 and blackgrass similar. Yet the observational evidence for years and umpteen trials is that efficacy of residual herbicide declines markedly once blackgrass emerges. Your proposed strategy goes completely against the observed evidence. Hey ho each to their own.

I agree with the evidence you cite.
I am talking about dry backend strategies IF we had our time again and didn’t have widespread Atlantis resistance, a better strategy may have been to reverse contacts and residuals under dry/ warm conditions Residual performance reduces once blackgrass emerges yes, but is this reduction in performance steeper than that of moisture deficient soil profiles ? Doubtful. There are blws coming through residual stacks this year that would never normally. Whereas an early SU has taken them out. Whilst this principle clearly doesn’t apply to resistant blackgrass perfectly I’m sure you can understand where I’m coming from

ALS/accase need good growing conditions

MOST residuals work better under poor growing conditions

I am not advocating this strategy now merely looking back with the benefit of hindsight, mr hindsight

 

[Feldspar]

Numbers game @Feldspar

He very much illustrated a worked example of the numbers.

The whole point of lots of offspring is lots of diversity.

How does the relationship between number of offspring produced per reproductive cycle relate to diversity within than generation? Is there a different propensity for one offspring to differ from another for a given number of offspring if something produces a high number of offspring?

 

[SilliamWhale]

Yes, the mechanism is not new / surprising. I suppose what stuck me about his claims was the speed with which the population changed. For example, he talked about an organic farmer using a weed surfer to take the tops off black-grass in clover. Within only a few years most of the black-grass that grew would grow shorter so that it did not emerge out of the top of clover. It surprised me that there was sufficient diversity within the original population to allow a population shift to occur on this timescale.

That wouldn't surprise me at all to be honest - weeds are weeds because they do adapt so well.

I always say you farm yourself into a weed problem and you farm your way out of it too. Blackgrass doesn't become a problem overnight (or any weed problem for that matter) and it will take as long to get out of a weed problem as to get in it imv.

Dwayne Becks idea of double cropping breaks is an interesting one. Not one that suits the UK's winter crops but the principle is interesting of x2 x2 x2 giving 4 years of a crop of a different family a chance to provide alternative herbicide control.

I personally don't think cultivation does much either way - or put it this way its certainly not as powerful a tool as rotation and variety

 

[SilliamWhale]

He very much illustrated a worked example of the numbers.



How does the relationship between number of offspring produced per reproductive cycle relate to diversity within than generation? Is there a different propensity for one offspring to differ from another for a given number of offspring if something produces a high number of offspring?

It doesn't necessarily relate. It is just be that some plants species are more adaptable than other full stop - look how specialist some bird species are. In fact Humans are in many ways a great example - we are very populous but in terms of number of offspring per reproductive cycle totally useless - and we can't do anything ourselves until we get to 6 or 7 and probably not survive til what, 11?

If left to its own devices would nature continue to become more diverse or less diverse?

 

[Feldspar]

That wouldn't surprise me at all to be honest - weeds are weeds because they do adapt so well.

I always say you farm yourself into a weed problem and you farm your way out of it too. Blackgrass doesn't become a problem overnight (or any weed problem for that matter) and it will take as long to get out of a weed problem as to get in it imv.

Dwayne Becks idea of double cropping breaks is an interesting one. Not one that suits the UK's winter crops but the principle is interesting of x2 x2 x2 giving 4 years of a crop of a different family a chance to provide alternative herbicide control.

I personally don't think cultivation does much either way - or put it this way its certainly not as powerful a tool as rotation and variety

I think cultivation has a big effect. If you have no-tilled for a while and then plough a population down you end up, if you plough properly, with a very different population. Agri Stow Longa trials have shown this well and repeatedly. Ben was quite against the idea of no-tilling for ever more because he said it's an obvious thing that the black-grass can adapt to. The ability to nearly completely change a population in one fell swoop, which a plough does, is not an ability that a lot of other tools can do.

I would say that I came away thinking that rotation was not as powerful as I had thought, at least not in the way that some people use it. That is, just sticking in spring crops and then remaining static in the rotation will still cause a muddle.

 

[Feldspar]

It doesn't necessarily relate. It is just be that some plants species are more adaptable than other full stop - look how specialist some bird species are. In fact Humans are in many ways a great example - we are very populous but in terms of number of offspring per reproductive cycle totally useless - and we can't do anything ourselves until we get to 6 or 7 and probably not survive til what, 11?

If left to its own devices would nature continue to become more diverse or less diverse?

What do you mean by adaptable though? Adaptability doesn't just capture the propensity for diversity (I am sure there is a technical term for this), but also captures number of offspring. I'm getting at the first factor. It may be that black-grass has no greater diversity for a given number of offspring, but is so adaptable simply by virtue of its large number of offspring, or it maybe it scores highly on both factors.

 

[Hindsight]

I think cultivation has a big effect. If you have no-tilled for a while and then plough a population down you end up, if you plough properly, with a very different population. Agri Stow Longa trials have shown this well and repeatedly. Ben was quite against the idea of no-tilling for ever more because he said it's an obvious thing that the black-grass can adapt to. The ability to nearly completely change a population in one fell swoop, which a plough does, is not an ability that a lot of other tools can do.

I would say that I came away thinking that rotation was not as powerful as I had thought, at least not in the way that some people use it. That is, just sticking in spring crops and then remaining static in the rotation will still cause a muddle.

Ben was quite against the idea of no-tilling for ever more because he said it's an obvious thing that the black-grass can adapt to

My observation is that is a simplistic view taking one factor in isolation (no-till versus tillage which again begs question which tillage) Population dynamics more complex than that. I see folk who plough with blackgass. I see folk who practise reduced tillage with very little / maneagble blackgrass - as other factors interact.

That is, just sticking in spring crops and then remaining static in the rotation will still cause a muddle

This use of the generic term 'spring crops' is incorrect in context of managing balckgrass within a rotation. My observation is the impact on blackgrass of different spring crops can and is marked. I find Spring Barley exceptionally good at reducing blackgrass. Wheras some of the spring break crops - peas / beans actually can increase the population.

But each to their own. I may have to find this fellas Nuffield report to have a read - along with the countless other things I have to read.

 

[Feldspar]

Ben was quite against the idea of no-tilling for ever more because he said it's an obvious thing that the black-grass can adapt to

My observation is that is a simplistic view taking one factor in isolation (no-till versus tillage which again begs question which tillage) Population dynamics more complex than that. I see folk who plough with blackgass. I see folk who practise reduced tillage with very little / maneagble blackgrass - as other factors interact

Doing my best to convey his argument (surely he's on here?), tillage was just one strand of thinking. He certainly did not take this one strand in isolation. He did stress very much it's how and when you plough, rather than just if you plough, and how that interacts with other changes in the farming system.

That is, just sticking in spring crops and then remaining static in the rotation will still cause a muddle

This use of the generic term 'spring crops' is incorrect in context of managing balckgrass within a rotation. My observation is the impact on blackgrass of different spring crops can and is marked. I find Spring Barley exceptionally good at reducing blackgrass. Wheras some of the spring break crops - peas / beans actually can increase the population.

We also find that spring crops differ and this is shown in some of NIAB's and Agrii's work. Jon Cussans at NIAB is well known for vehemently disliking spring beans for example. I think even if you choose spring barley the argument still works. If you grow continuous spring barley for a few years you will shift the population towards spring germinators. That's how I think the argument goes anyway.

But each to their own. I may have to find this fellas Nuffield report to have a read - along with the countless other things I have to read.