Best electric solution

[MikeNeaverson]

We have recently completely refurbished and insulated our old Victorian house and installed an Air Source Heat Pump, which in hindsight was a mistake.

Whilst it is more than capable of keeping us warm, the running costs at current electric prices are ridiculous compared to what we could be enjoying had I installed an oil boiler.

Personally I now can't see electric prices coming back down to 'normal' levels, which completely screws the economics of Airsource heating altogether. This is compounded by the fact that some idiot (me) didn't sign up to a tariff eligible for the Ofgem price cap because it seemed like a really good deal at the time last April. So I'm now paying 30p+ per unit.

So what to do?

We will use about 12,000kWh of electric per year which is heavily weighted towards the winter when we can use up to 65kWH (£20+ !!!!) on a really cold day.

We have about an acre of paddock/garden and I'm sure in our area that permissions for any domestic renewable project would not be difficult.

Solar doesn't fit our usage profile though which is because of the ASHP is now heavily weighted towards winter.

Wind could be a possibility but I understand the economics of c.10kW turbines are very questionable?

How about the economics of battery packs that use cheap night rates such as Octopus Agile to charge the pack up at much reduced rates? How much do they cost, and how electrically efficient are they? Could they charge up overnight and run a 3kw input heat pump for much of the day?

Or should I just cut my losses and install an oil boiler alongside it?

 

[wanton dwarf]

I would guess all fuel is going to follow Natural Gas and be just as expensive in the long term - however there is a good chance that if another worldwide lockdown happens then the price of Oil will plummet. So could work out well.

A Log Gasification Burner linked to a heat storage system ? Or could go wood chip. Logs you could source from your own garden ? You'll get RHI on that as well.

 

[renewablejohn]

If you have a stream hydro would probably be your best solution. If not a small biomass chp for winter and solar thermal for the rest of the year.

 

[555]

I looked into battery storage using the Octopus Go tariff for my house, I had a price in of £4500 inc vat for a kit giving me 8.2kw worth of battery storage. Man math's - 8kw, probably more like 7kw of usable power @ 25p kw - £1.75 worth of electric for , 5p kw, £0.35p - a saving of £1.40 daily . Pay back of nearly 9 years. assuming kw prices remain. That's not a viable investment in my book. It would need to be between £1500 and £2000 for me to get the pen out. Another firm gave me £5000 for 7.2Kw. These are fully installed

 

[renewablejohn]

I would guess all fuel is going to follow Natural Gas and be just as expensive in the long term - however there is a good chance that if another worldwide lockdown happens then the price of Oil will plummet. So could work out well.

A Log Gasification Burner linked to a heat storage system ? Or could go wood chip. Logs you could source from your own garden ? You'll get RHI on that as well.

Your to late for RHI the scheme actually closes in March 2022 but there really is not sufficient time to get equipment installed by then.

 

[Puff]

Your to late for RHI the scheme actually closes in March 2022 but there really is not sufficient time to get equipment installed by then.Better

Better make sure my installer registers me quick!

Just a thought, what about converting ASHP into GSHP as its more efficient?

 

[renewablejohn]

Better make sure my installer registers me quick!

Just a thought, what about converting ASHP into GSHP as its more efficient?

Careful of the small print. When other schemes have finished even though registered they have not been paid out as the project not signed off as completed by the cut off date.

 

[Water Wheel]

We have recently completely refurbished and insulated our old Victorian house and installed an Air Source Heat Pump, which in hindsight was a mistake.

Whilst it is more than capable of keeping us warm, the running costs at current electric prices are ridiculous compared to what we could be enjoying had I installed an oil boiler.

Personally I now can't see electric prices coming back down to 'normal' levels, which completely screws the economics of Airsource heating altogether. This is compounded by the fact that some idiot (me) didn't sign up to a tariff eligible for the Ofgem price cap because it seemed like a really good deal at the time last April. So I'm now paying 30p+ per unit.

So what to do?

We will use about 12,000kWh of electric per year which is heavily weighted towards the winter when we can use up to 65kWH (£20+ !!!!) on a really cold day.

We have about an acre of paddock/garden and I'm sure in our area that permissions for any domestic renewable project would not be difficult.

Solar doesn't fit our usage profile though which is because of the ASHP is now heavily weighted towards winter.

Wind could be a possibility but I understand the economics of c.10kW turbines are very questionable?

How about the economics of battery packs that use cheap night rates such as Octopus Agile to charge the pack up at much reduced rates? How much do they cost, and how electrically efficient are they? Could they charge up overnight and run a 3kw input heat pump for much of the day?

Or should I just cut my losses and install an oil boiler alongside it?

Why store electricity in batteries to convert back to heat, should the house not have enough Thermal Mass to store the heat directly in bricks and concrete?
Heat the thermal mass when the electric is cheap . Another reason to chose GSHP over ASHP as makes no difference at what time of day you extract the heat, as unlike air the ground is the same temperature all the time.

 

[Lincsman]

Fit an oil boiler, (12 months ago they were nearly giving it away) but does it mean re piping the whole house and radiators?

 

[Chickcatcher]

@nev12345
Only just seen your post.
I also have a 110 year old house that we have seriously upgraded with extension and to save the planet also did ASHP my 2021 use was 13458Kw lucky to be locked in to 3 year contract 20 months to run. Your battery storage idea I like BUT to run your 64Kw use on a bad day would need (averaging) 2.7Kw/hr storage for 17 hrs a day if my maths are correct that's YOUR "Tesla" linked to provide 45Kw of battery storage. How it could be done I have no idea but the Tesla on super fast charge could be recharged in your low rate period, I presume is Midnight to 7am.
Just given myself the brilliant idea and further ammunition for the FAMILY TO BUY ME A TESLA.
@renewablejohn
There is a few Questions above that perhaps those that know could come up with some answers could it work. Would surely be a more economic answer than just a fixed battery store.

 

[Chickcatcher]

Apparently there are no Cars with a battery system that can be used to supply a reverse flow of power.

 

[renewablejohn]

Apparently there are no Cars with a battery system that can be used to supply a reverse flow of power.

I know Sono motor is producing such a car but its not available until 2023 or at least it wont be until then that all the up front orders have been met.

 

[renewablejohn]

Apparently there are no Cars with a battery system that can be used to supply a reverse flow of power.

You may also want to look at Audi who have tied in with Hager group

 

[Timbo]

oil boiler installed abit quick.

 

[rogeriko]

The technology is called VTG vehicle to grid and many models support it.

Currently, only the ‘CHAdeMO’ DC connector is compatible with V2G, and so only car models that support this connector are V2G compatible. As of May 2021, the models that accept a ‘CHAdeMO’ connection are: Nissan Leaf 40kWh, Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, Toyota Prius Plug-In, Tesla Model S (when fitted with an adapter), Nissan e-NV200 (van), Kia Soul EV, Citroen Berlingo Electric, Citroen C-Zero, LEVC London Taxi .

Octopus has two V2G tariffs to choose from: Octopusgo, which has cheap electricity for 5p/kWh between 00:30 – 04:30 every night, and Agile Octopus, where you get access to half-hourly energy prices, tied to wholesale prices and updated daily. So, when wholesale prices drop, so do your bills – and if you can shift your daily electricity to use outside of peak times, then you can also make additional savings.

Vehicle to Grid - Save Money on Electric Car Charging

Vehicle to grid technology allows you earn money by selling excess energy stored in your electric vehicle's battery back to the grid.

www.flexi-orb.com

 

[sjt01]

Apparently there are no Cars with a battery system that can be used to supply a reverse flow of power.

The Nissan Leaf can, as Chademo connectors are designed for this. I believe there have been some trials in the SW. The CCS standard is evolving to allow this, but in the US the Ford F150 Lighning has a V2H (vehicle to home) connector, and some of the Korean cars can supply 3 kW

 

[Chickcatcher]

Thanks "Boys" young 35 year old in the Village doesn't know it all. It looks as I will need to use TFF even more, so its V2H we need to look at.

 

[welshfarming]

We have recently completely refurbished and insulated our old Victorian house and installed an Air Source Heat Pump, which in hindsight was a mistake.

Whilst it is more than capable of keeping us warm, the running costs at current electric prices are ridiculous compared to what we could be enjoying had I installed an oil boiler.

Personally I now can't see electric prices coming back down to 'normal' levels, which completely screws the economics of Airsource heating altogether. This is compounded by the fact that some idiot (me) didn't sign up to a tariff eligible for the Ofgem price cap because it seemed like a really good deal at the time last April. So I'm now paying 30p+ per unit.

So what to do?

We will use about 12,000kWh of electric per year which is heavily weighted towards the winter when we can use up to 65kWH (£20+ !!!!) on a really cold day.

We have about an acre of paddock/garden and I'm sure in our area that permissions for any domestic renewable project would not be difficult.

Solar doesn't fit our usage profile though which is because of the ASHP is now heavily weighted towards winter.

Wind could be a possibility but I understand the economics of c.10kW turbines are very questionable?

How about the economics of battery packs that use cheap night rates such as Octopus Agile to charge the pack up at much reduced rates? How much do they cost, and how electrically efficient are they? Could they charge up overnight and run a 3kw input heat pump for much of the day?

Or should I just cut my losses and install an oil boiler alongside it?

I've been thinking exactly the same, using battery packs to store cheap from Octopus. Thing is, they will eventually vary the tariff and you would be beholden to them. Battery packs for 60kw works out around £20,000 though.
You'll need at least that for the 65kw that you use (much the same usage with me).
Have you considered hydro? That's where I am going with it.
Airsource I thankfully found out about before I went any further, just got my fingers burnt quite literally with BioMass, don't go there
Wind turbines still a bit iffy as they seem to have reliability issues.
I would very much suggst sticking in an oil boiler, the oil is still way cheaper than it used to be.

 

[renewablejohn]

I've been thinking exactly the same, using battery packs to store cheap from Octopus. Thing is, they will eventually vary the tariff and you would be beholden to them. Battery packs for 60kw works out around £20,000 though.
You'll need at least that for the 65kw that you use (much the same usage with me).
Have you considered hydro? That's where I am going with it.
Airsource I thankfully found out about before I went any further, just got my fingers burnt quite literally with BioMass, don't go there
Wind turbines still a bit iffy as they seem to have reliability issues.
I would very much suggst sticking in an oil boiler, the oil is still way cheaper than it used to be.

Nothing wrong with biomass if you know what your doing and specify the right technology for the job and insulate and draught proof your home. I started out with an oil boiler that would consume 2 tank full of oil each year that was 4800 ltrs. The farmhouse had no insulation, single glaze windows in rotten frames which just let the wind howl through. Basically I had bought a fridge. The insulation and triple glazung has worked as the 60kw oil boiler has been repaced with a 15kw log boiler and is only used September through to March. No you can keep your oil and I will stick with wood but with the addition of some solar thermal to reduce the annual wood usage.

 

[MikeNeaverson]

Thanks all for your help. I perhaps wrote the original post in hast having had a particularly dad day of usage. Throughout the winter we have averaged something like 28kwh per day for all power (we have no other heating or cooking source). So we will likely use around 9,000kwh in a year which is actually less than what I'd budgeted for. I don't think a battery back will be economical sadly. I think I need to look at the potential for a wind turbine for my business.