Better soil sample test

[Brisel]

My next round of SOYL smart (soil zone) sampling is due next year. This will just be the standard NRM ones for Olsen P etc. I'm considering a few "better" soil tests e.g. Albrecht/Reams on a few spots to better understand how to manage the plant nutrition better. Doing the whole 900 samples will be prohibitively expensive so do I do a few biological ones or more e.g. one per field of the less detailed ones like CEC, base saturations or more of the less pricey ones as a step up from the basic NRM PKMgpH?

I've already had SOM measured using the crude Loss On Ignition method 3 years ago before starting strip till DD as a baseline. IMO it's too early to do this again.

NRM list of lab test options http://www.nrm.uk.com/services.php?service=agriculture

Or something from Laverstoke http://www.laverstokepark.co.uk/about-us/we-believe/analytical-chemistry-lab/

http://www.innovationforagriculture.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Soil_Testing_Labs.pdf

What have others done and how has it improved your bottom line? Knowledge is priceless but I need to learn more about managing high pH chalks. Plant tissue tests have just raised more questions than answers. Boron, Copper and Potassium consistently show up, though solid fertiliser Magnesium & Potash don't always translate into tissue results. Yields were no better where single or multi trace element mixes were added to sprays so I'm at a loss to know where to go next.

 

[Audlem Agron]

The issues with soil testing is how to interpret the information you have collated into on farm action - literally how to use it. This starts with interpreting the information into an action plan. Start with the big stuff first - calcium, potash magnesium then phosphate. Plant tissue samples arent a lot of use as they change during the day and are a snap shot of what the plant is up to at that moment. They arent an indicator of what a plants long term needs are. They are only really any use in confirming short term acute nutritional deficiency.

Albrecht or base saturation testing is the most informative test - though again this needs to be turned into a "do this" plan. All I can suggest is getting an experienced soil specialist in to help with this - I can suggest a few independent people if you like but like all good advice it involves recognising expertise with £.

 

[Brisel]

Thank you. Suggestions of labs & independent specialists would be appreciated. @Warnesworth has already been in touch.

@Two Tone - I seem to remember you were using Albrecht tests. Who did these for you please?

 

[SilliamWhale]

Albrecht is flawed. And uneconomic

 

[Brisel]

Albrecht is flawed. And uneconomic

What methods do you use?

 

[Audlem Agron]

Albrecht is flawed. And uneconomic

I disagree.

 

[Audlem Agron]

Thank you. Suggestions of labs & independent specialists would be appreciated. @Warnesworth has already been in touch.

@Two Tone - I seem to remember you were using Albrecht tests. Who did these for you please?

Get in touch with Steve Townsend at Soil First Farming, Or Mark Tripney at iSoil. Re the lab, I use NRM. You will need to request a code from them for the analysis form for base saturation.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I disagree.

Have you any scientific evidence to back up the ratio theory at a field scale?

 

[Audlem Agron]

Have you any scientific evidence to back up the ratio theory at a field scale?

Yes - I have a body of evidence and experience of soil and yield characteristics improving after this type of analysis has been correctly interpreted and used. If you fancy a trip to the NW I will take you to the farms its worked on.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Yes - I have a body of evidence and experience of soil and yield characteristics improving after this type of analysis has been correctly interpreted and used. If you fancy a trip to the NW I will take you to the farms its worked on.

But any published data? Independent data?

I get that reacting to a detailed soil test may give yield advantages if you invest accordingly as a result of them but dont believe extrapolating ratios from Albrechts research on the basis of a small soil sample is effective

 

[Audlem Agron]

But any published data? Independent data?

No.

 

[SilliamWhale]

No.

So how do you know what to base your decisions on in the first place?

 

[Audlem Agron]

So how do you know what to base your decisions on in the first place?

Calculations based on the base saturation levels the soil tests reveal, experience, and time.

 

[Two Tone]

Thank you. Suggestions of labs & independent specialists would be appreciated. @Warnesworth has already been in touch.

@Two Tone - I seem to remember you were using Albrecht tests. Who did these for you please?

Glenside Group. But make sure they do the proper Albrecht test rather than the cheap ones that make too many assumptions.

 

[Two Tone]

Albrecht is flawed. And uneconomic

I disagree totally. Why are they flawed?
They have saved this farm £180k over the last 12 years. Our yields are way up and our spend on P(especially) and K down by the above figures.

Why? Because they show what is there, locked up but can be made available again.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I disagree totally. Why are they flawed?
They have saved this farm £180k over the last 12 years. Our yields are way up and our spend on P(especially) and K down by the above figures.

Why? Because they show what is there, locked up but can be made available again.

Because the balancing ratios is pointless if you dont have enough of a nutrient. Law of minimum etc.

It doesnt show anything "locked up" at all.

Usually when farmers start getting into "Albrecht" they start showing an interest in soil fertility per se and of course they reap the benefits. Can you tell me what youve done to save the £180k?

 

[Two Tone]

Because the balancing ratios is pointless if you dont have enough of a nutrient. Law of minimum etc.

It doesnt show anything "locked up" at all.

Usually when farmers start getting into "Albrecht" they start showing an interest in soil fertility per se and of course they reap the benefits. Can you tell me what youve done to save the £180k?

Yes. Our NRM tests showed that we needed to spend IRO £180k on P&K ferts over the past 12 years. Albrecht showed that we have plenty in our soils, which are high in Calcium and Iron to excess, but are locked up.

Albrecht showed us how, for very little expense indeed, we could release those and other locked up nutrients.

RB209 might work on most or some soils, but not everywhere and certainly not here.

I do a lot of contract combining and Labour and Machinery share farming next door or on near neighbouring farms. Some of which have stuck with the NRM test results and fertilised to RB209 standards.

If following Albrecht doesn’t work, how is it that our yields are better?

 

[Brisel]

Are you using the seaweed products that Glenside sell?

 

[SilliamWhale]

Yes. Our NRM tests showed that we needed to spend IRO £180k on P&K ferts over the past 12 years. Albrecht showed that we have plenty in our soils, which are high in Calcium and Iron to excess, but are locked up.

Albrecht showed us how, for very little expense indeed, we could release those and other locked up nutrients.

RB209 might work on most or some soils, but not everywhere and certainly not here.

I do a lot of contract combining and Labour and Machinery share farming next door or on near neighbouring farms. Some of which have stuck with the NRM test results and fertilised to RB209 standards.

If following Albrecht doesn’t work, how is it that our yields are better?

How do you define what an excess of Calcium is? And iron?

I think its a total misnomer to say there should be a certain ratio of Ca, Mg and K for ideal plant growth as espoused by Albrecht Soil balancing. Plant growth is palpably not affected by ratios of nutrients because its been tested quite rigourously. furthermore the size of your soil sample vs your growing medium is what 1 million times smaller?

You either have enough P and K in the soil for your needs or you are mining it - albeit very slowly possibly if chopping straw etc. But you still have enough "quantity" of P and K - even normal NRM soil tests are only a snapshot and as limited as any other soil test.

It may be the case that high pH soils could take sulphur in order to temporarily acidify the soil zone a bit but the parent material is still the same. I can also accept that an very high calcium soils will limit plant uptake of other nutrients but it still doesn't lead to a ratio

 

[martian]

Interesting.

Next you'll be telling us the phase of the moon makes no difference