Biomass CHP Off grid/ Single Phase?

[Zero Homes]

Looking to see if anyone has information on Biomass CHP systems that would work Off Grid.? With all Electric and Heat used on site. Any company's in mind?

Maybe using on site storage?

Are the ROI still good on CHP systems?

 

[Biomass Bart]

Hi, it is possible although might be fairly expensive as you will need to stabilise your electricity. The main issue usually is heat utilisation for 7000-8400hrs per annum, as you will need to run your boiler constantly to produce electricity.This mean that 1MW of heat will deliver maybe 70kW of electricity. Payback is good, but the cost of running is also high - think £150k for wood chips per year, around £230k income from RHI, so nett around £70k. It is a very good payback, but only if you need all this heat and if running biomass will save you against fossil fuels.
Also depends on what technology you have in mind, Gasicifation of biomass or combustion and running an ORC engine.
What is your main driver behind it? Savings on heating or electricity?
If you want to have an chat about it PM me with your phone number.

 

[Zero Homes]

Hi Biomass Bart.. your inbox seems to be full.. Anyone else got any experience or ideas?

 

[renewablejohn]

You dont have to run the boiler 24/7 if you use thermal oil or have a steam accumulator system.

 

[rollestonpark]

ROC is gone and contracts for difference is the replacement, from what I've heard its not very good on the payments. But someone else will have to confirm this.
RHI payments are also not good nowadays for new setups.
1MW of heat is a hell of a lot of heat to get rid of, you'd need to be sure you could use this year round to get the 70kw
I run a gasification CHP, I prefer it personally, because in my case I get 56kw of electric and only 110kw of heat. So this level of heat is much easier to deal with.

But for gasification you need quality wood chip at about 8 - 10% moisture, else it won't run.
It's also a challenging piece of kit to keep running.
Running it without a grid connection would be difficult I think. Because you are making a gas from a variable material. Thus the power tends to fluctuate a bit and if you have nothing to balance it against(the grid), you'll go overvoltage if your not consuming just the right amount. However you'd have to check with the manufacturer.

But pricey bits of kit, whatever type CHP you go with. Also a fair number of expensive failures out there doing not a lot, so be warned.
Chris

 

[f0ster]

I know a lad that was servicing volter chp on a regular basis, it requires carefully graded fuel for size and moisture, and the reaction chamber requires a strip down every four months, there is a s/s tube in there that burns out, they have been trying to find a fix for this but last I heard nothing yet, the froling version is also no better for reliability I am told. A large binder with an orc is another option, altho I am told the orc part is over £300k for a 90kw

 

[rollestonpark]

I run a Froling CHP, have been working with Austria and many of the issues have been sorted.
And development is ongoing, with new things being sent to try now and again.
But it's still a high maintenance machine that you will have to get your hands dirty on regularly.

If you don't like mucking in and getting your hands dirty, gasification CHP is definitely not for you.
If you think biomass boilers are dirty machines, this takes you to a whole new level.

Having said that it did 7500 hours in the first year with some work and me not really knowing what I was doing.
Since then, the runtime is looking more around 8000 hours for this year.
But to be honest you won't get much better than 8000 hours in a year when things are going well.

Also with the price of wood the way it is, without good payments, it's an absolute none starter.
Chris

 

[rogeriko]

I know a lad that was servicing volter chp on a regular basis, it requires carefully graded fuel for size and moisture, and the reaction chamber requires a strip down every four months, there is a s/s tube in there that burns out, they have been trying to find a fix for this but last I heard nothing yet, the froling version is also no better for reliability I am told. A large binder with an orc is another option, altho I am told the orc part is over £300k for a 90kw

The Volter CHP units are running the best now. All the problems with the stainless steel tubes that needed replacing have been solved with aftermarket tubes made 3 times the thickness. They still need a 4 month cleanout that takes 1 day but otherwise they run good. I know because I'm the lad that fixes them.

 

[akaPABLO01]

Why has no one asked how much heat and power is needed and for what application?

 

[f0ster]

froling are new ceramic coating the reaction chamber of their CHP

 

[Fowler VF]

Interesting. I wrote an engineering report on a Frohling plant for a client that was having major issues with the combustion chamber cracking. Our basic finding was that Frohling had done too good a job on the construction, it was made of a high grade stainless alloy that wasn't able to cope with the thermal stresses of being very hot on one side and colder on the other. We used the example of steam boilers being made from a mild steel boiler plate and soft stays that allowed the firebox to move rather than crack. One of the other alternatives was better shielding of the combustion chamber with fire bricks!

 

[turbofarming]

Our froling CHPs now run with firebricks protecting the combustion chamber. Seems to be an improvement so far.

 

[Fowler VF]

Very nice to know that my assessment seems to have been correct!!
Hope they continue to behave. I did find that they were very well built and engineered. Too well built as it turned out. But its nice to know that Frohling seem to have tried to rectify matters. In theory these machines should have perhaps run better and with less work than the much cheaper (almost half the price) alternatives like the Spanner units. In practice they certainly didn't at the outset, the reality is that as Rolleston park says, gasification CHP of any sort takes biomass to a whole new level and will always require a fair degree of hands on work. Still nice to know that Frohling seem to be taking the issues seriously.

 

[chpservice]

The Volter CHP units are running the best now. All the problems with the stainless steel tubes that needed replacing have been solved with aftermarket tubes made 3 times the thickness. They still need a 4 month cleanout that takes 1 day but otherwise they run good. I know because I'm the lad that fixes them.

View attachment 746790

 

[chpservice]

Those particular Volter CHP units have been switched off along with the two others on that site, the one on the left in that picture had actually caught fire.
The owners decided that they were not cost effective due to unreliableilty, this was after the new thicker tubes installed for the gasifier, the inverter cabinets swapped for more advanced type. They had a brilliant guy there full time looking after 4 Volter CHP machines and the other biomass boilers, ORC machines, he was probably the most Volter qualified in the UK due to the fact he ran them and fixed them every Day. I got talking to him as he was looking for work and his enthusiasm for these CHP’s and knowledge was quite amazing, would have hired him myself but he was actually offered a better job elsewhere not working on CHP’s. actually a wasted talent. He said that had his former boss had installed the Volter machines as they are now, with a better way of feeding the chip and removing the Ash then reliability would have been a lot better, it was just unfortunate they took on unproven machines and this has cost them in the long run.

 

[Lacewood]

Hi, I am new to this forum, and only on it, as I am awaiting the loss adjuster coming to look at my district heating unit that caught fire yesterday!
We have been running a district heating scheme since 2012, and it was one of the first installed under the RHI. It consisted of an Eta 199 kw boiler running on our own woodchip from our own woodland. It performed pretty well, and was generally trouble free. The one major concern was the lack of back up boiler, which worried me when I was responsible for heating 10 houses, some of which also had no back up. In 2016, an opportunity arose to move the Eta elsewhere, and reorganise the district heating scheme. I was very keen to get involved with electricity production, so looked at Biomass CHP. We were unable to get a grid connection of more than 30kw, which obviously ruled out all the 50kw CHP units on the market at the time. Essentially, the only unit available at the time that was suitable was the Entrade E3. After much research and a factory visit, we took the plunge and purchased. The unit cost £80,000, and the extra stuff for grid connection, electrical work and housing and peripherals added another £40,000. We also added a Froling 100 kw pellet boiler as back up.
We started the machine in April 2016, and ran into problems almost immediately. We had big gasifier issues, with tubes distorting, and even melting. Despite being very hands on, we only achieved 5500 hrs in the first year. Entrade themselves were superb, but we needed them much more than I expected. I had the option to return the E3 at the end of the first year, and very nearly did, but as it was running well at the time, we decided to continue with it. It promptly started to misbehave badly, and we again only achieved 5500 hrs in the second year. Throughout this period, I could not fault Entrade, their back up was superb, and they constantly improved things and changed parts, and rarely charged us for anything. They did not blame fuel or anyone else, just kept on trying to find solutions. The 3rd year was markedly better, and we have achieved 6200 hrs. How anyone gets 8000 hrs is beyond me. Unfortunately, Entrade went bust in October 2018. Since then we have been operating the machine without any back up, and actually it has been OK, until yesterday, when a fire in the pellet store put an end to the E3. The machine is probably salvageable, as the sprinkler did a pretty good job, but as most of the building has gone, I suspect it will be some time before it is running again. Entrade have started up again, under the guise of Biogen Systems, and seem to be trying to give the same level of back up as before.
Biomass gasification CHP does work, and if you have a high and constant demand for both heat and electricity, even with the reduced RHI and Electrical subsidy, the figures do add up. However, like much of farming, it is filthy work, and can be very frustrating. It certainly is not easy. Most of the systems have been sold as plug and play and 8000 hrs, which is just not reasonable. Most of the units were brought to market before they were ready, and the early adopters really paid the price. I suspect that Entrade were the only manufacturer that didn't expect the customer to pay for the manufacturers mistakes. Hopefully they can get going again fully in the near future.

 

[rollestonpark]

Thanks for your insight Lacewood.
Didn't know anything about the E3 one to be honest.
I've run the Froling MAN CHP for just over to 2 years. And as said it's dirty work and needs a lot more work than a boiler.
But Froling have been good at making improvements and things do work pretty well.
Managed to get 7959 hours on it last year. These are hours with the generator connected to the grid, not engine hours (which would be higher).

So am pleased with the system and Froling's help.

Biggest issue now is keeping the paperwork/Ofgem happy.
Chris

 

[Lacewood]

Yeah, you're right. Ofgem are a nightmare. Our installation has been audited 3 times now, once at short notice. They are determined to find fault, but so far we have had everything in order. It is not easy!