Biomass CHP Off grid/ Single Phase?

Discussion in 'Renewable Energy' started by Zero Homes, Jul 20, 2018.

  1. Zero Homes

    Zero Homes Member

    North Wales
    Looking to see if anyone has information on Biomass CHP systems that would work Off Grid.? With all Electric and Heat used on site. Any company's in mind?

    Maybe using on site storage?

    Are the ROI still good on CHP systems?
    spin cycle likes this.
  2. Biomass Bart

    Biomass Bart New Member

    South -West
    Hi, it is possible although might be fairly expensive as you will need to stabilise your electricity. The main issue usually is heat utilisation for 7000-8400hrs per annum, as you will need to run your boiler constantly to produce electricity.This mean that 1MW of heat will deliver maybe 70kW of electricity. Payback is good, but the cost of running is also high - think £150k for wood chips per year, around £230k income from RHI, so nett around £70k. It is a very good payback, but only if you need all this heat and if running biomass will save you against fossil fuels.
    Also depends on what technology you have in mind, Gasicifation of biomass or combustion and running an ORC engine.
    What is your main driver behind it? Savings on heating or electricity?
    If you want to have an chat about it PM me with your phone number.
  3. Zero Homes

    Zero Homes Member

    North Wales
    Hi Biomass Bart.. your inbox seems to be full.. Anyone else got any experience or ideas?
  4. renewablejohn

    renewablejohn Member

    You dont have to run the boiler 24/7 if you use thermal oil or have a steam accumulator system.
  5. rollestonpark

    rollestonpark Member

    Burton on trent
    ROC is gone and contracts for difference is the replacement, from what I've heard its not very good on the payments. But someone else will have to confirm this.
    RHI payments are also not good nowadays for new setups.
    1MW of heat is a hell of a lot of heat to get rid of, you'd need to be sure you could use this year round to get the 70kw
    I run a gasification CHP, I prefer it personally, because in my case I get 56kw of electric and only 110kw of heat. So this level of heat is much easier to deal with.

    But for gasification you need quality wood chip at about 8 - 10% moisture, else it won't run.
    It's also a challenging piece of kit to keep running.
    Running it without a grid connection would be difficult I think. Because you are making a gas from a variable material. Thus the power tends to fluctuate a bit and if you have nothing to balance it against(the grid), you'll go overvoltage if your not consuming just the right amount. However you'd have to check with the manufacturer.

    But pricey bits of kit, whatever type CHP you go with. Also a fair number of expensive failures out there doing not a lot, so be warned.
  6. f0ster

    f0ster Member

    I know a lad that was servicing volter chp on a regular basis, it requires carefully graded fuel for size and moisture, and the reaction chamber requires a strip down every four months, there is a s/s tube in there that burns out, they have been trying to find a fix for this but last I heard nothing yet, the froling version is also no better for reliability I am told. A large binder with an orc is another option, altho I am told the orc part is over £300k for a 90kw
  7. rollestonpark

    rollestonpark Member

    Burton on trent
    I run a Froling CHP, have been working with Austria and many of the issues have been sorted.
    And development is ongoing, with new things being sent to try now and again.
    But it's still a high maintenance machine that you will have to get your hands dirty on regularly.

    If you don't like mucking in and getting your hands dirty, gasification CHP is definitely not for you.
    If you think biomass boilers are dirty machines, this takes you to a whole new level.

    Having said that it did 7500 hours in the first year with some work and me not really knowing what I was doing.
    Since then, the runtime is looking more around 8000 hours for this year.
    But to be honest you won't get much better than 8000 hours in a year when things are going well.

    Also with the price of wood the way it is, without good payments, it's an absolute none starter.
  8. rogeriko

    rogeriko New Member

    The Volter CHP units are running the best now. All the problems with the stainless steel tubes that needed replacing have been solved with aftermarket tubes made 3 times the thickness. They still need a 4 month cleanout that takes 1 day but otherwise they run good. I know because I'm the lad that fixes them.

  9. akaPABLO01

    akaPABLO01 Member

    Why has no one asked how much heat and power is needed and for what application?
  10. f0ster

    f0ster Member

    froling are new ceramic coating the reaction chamber of their CHP
  11. Fowler VF

    Fowler VF Member

    Interesting. I wrote an engineering report on a Frohling plant for a client that was having major issues with the combustion chamber cracking. Our basic finding was that Frohling had done too good a job on the construction, it was made of a high grade stainless alloy that wasn't able to cope with the thermal stresses of being very hot on one side and colder on the other. We used the example of steam boilers being made from a mild steel boiler plate and soft stays that allowed the firebox to move rather than crack. One of the other alternatives was better shielding of the combustion chamber with fire bricks!
  12. turbofarming

    turbofarming Member

    Our froling CHPs now run with firebricks protecting the combustion chamber. Seems to be an improvement so far.
  13. Fowler VF

    Fowler VF Member

    Very nice to know that my assessment seems to have been correct!!
    Hope they continue to behave. I did find that they were very well built and engineered. Too well built as it turned out. But its nice to know that Frohling seem to have tried to rectify matters. In theory these machines should have perhaps run better and with less work than the much cheaper (almost half the price) alternatives like the Spanner units. In practice they certainly didn't at the outset, the reality is that as Rolleston park says, gasification CHP of any sort takes biomass to a whole new level and will always require a fair degree of hands on work. Still nice to know that Frohling seem to be taking the issues seriously.
    akaPABLO01 likes this.

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